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PA Mains--Bass Without A Sub

#21
Wayward Son said:
Thank you. This would be possible as I have a D800+ and a pair of Subway 115 cabinets. So, still using the IEM, I suppose I could limit the lower frequencies sent to the PA mains (using the XR18 mixer's HPF/EQ settings), and put my 115 cabinets up front (where a sub would be)? I could use the Pre-DI out on the amp--meaning I could put a lower end of the bass through my 115 cabinets, and leave the PA mains to disperse the higher bass frequencies. Something like that? I guess I'll have to play with that. Might be a good enough solution for our situation.

This would still leave any keyboards, all guitars, vocals and, when outside, select drums to run through the tops. But at least the lower end bass would be full from the cabinets and the higher end might produce a wide feel from additional dispersion through the mains. Interesting. I think I've always, traditionally, thought my amp needs to be behind me. But if I'm all IEM, it probably doesn't matter where the cabinets sit--so long as it helps the overall sound out front. Probably have to play with that--positioning to see what works best.
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I just place my cab behind me, not in front, but you should try it different ways to see what works best for you. Based on what you described, I would think a single Subway 1x15 would work just fine as the primary bass source, and then the QSC tops would provide some support.
good luck!
 
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#22
Pep said:
You won’t find a lightweight sub.
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well, when I was putting together my small/medium PA for use when we did not get full pro FOH, I ended up with the QSC K12.2's I mentioned before and an EV EKX 15SP (and some K10.2's for monitors). The EKX 15SP is a front loaded, direct radiator design (not a band pass box) and it weighs in at 57lbs, which is very modest for a great sub. So it is possible to get a decent sub that is not a total back breaker. This combination works very well for small medium venues (up to 200ish people) where the SPL needs are not crazy.
 
#25
Wayward Son said:
This would be possible as I have a D800+ and a pair of Subway 115 cabinets. So, still using the IEM, I suppose I could limit the lower frequencies sent to the PA mains (using the XR18 mixer's HPF/EQ settings), and put my 115 cabinets up front (where a sub would be)? I could use the Pre-DI out on the amp--meaning I could put a lower end of the bass through my 115 cabinets, and leave the PA mains to disperse the higher bass frequencies. Something like that? I guess I'll have to play with that. Might be a good enough solution for our situation.

This would still leave any keyboards, all guitars, vocals and, when outside, select drums to run through the tops. But at least the lower end bass would be full from the cabinets and the higher end might produce a wide feel from additional dispersion through the mains.
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I would do exactly that if I were you.

When my band uses only mains without subs, our sound guy asks me to bring my bass cab (even though we are on IEM).

QSC K12.2 features variable HPF (at 80, 100 and 125 Hz). I would engage it in case you decide to bring your bass cab.

The higher your set the HPF, the more protected your mains are. For small quiet gigs, I would set it at 80Hz and use one bass cabinet. For louder gigs, I would set it at either 100 or 125Hz and use two bass cabinets.

I might also set the HPF on the channel even higher (150-300 Hz) for bass guitar in order to prevent phase issues between lows from the bass cab and lows from the mains..

Good luck!
 
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#26
I can recommend the Electro-Voice EKX-15P speakers. My band uses Mackie with two subs, a venue we play at has a DJ and uses these and they hold up, and are pretty darn loud. Maybe a few pounds over your weight, but if I were going to buy a pair of 15 mains, these would be it.
 
#27
Wayward Son said:
Greetings.

I'm looking to purchase a pair of PA mains. I am looking for mains that will best handle the low frequencies at "moderate", but definitely "gig/bar" volumes--and still capture a solid bottom end feeling, WITHOUT a sub, and without putting the main's drivers at risk. I don't have the budget for a sub at this point in time--so yes, while I understand "get a sub" is the "go to" response, that's not what I'm asking. The other factor is weight--like to keep it right at 40 lbs. Here is our situation:

Our current band configuration is all IEM (no stage amps).
I want to stay right near or under $2000 for a pair of mains.
I want the weight to be right at or under 40 pounds.
I use only 4 string basses. No pedalboard. Direct out to mixer.
I tend to favor a crisp, clean tone, but like the feel of bottom end support beneath that.
We play mostly classic rock.
We are not overbearingly loud--but do play both outdoors and indoors.
The clubs we play in are usually capacity of around 200-300.
Let me know if you need additional information...

I have done a bit of research and have three "maybes" on my list:

QSC K12.2 ($2000 + tax)(39 lbs)

RCF ART 912-A ($1800 +)(42 lbs)

JBL PRX 912 ($1800 +)(43 lbs)

For folks with experience using any of these systems, might one be "considerably better" than another in terms of handling the lower frequencies of bass? Alternatively, is there an even better system in my budget/weight range that handles bass frequencies better than these that I'm not aware of? NOTE: I'm pretty conservative about not pushing my gear to the limit. I like the gear I purchase to serve me well and last a long time.

I understand that without a sub, I may not "feel" the bass as much--I get it. But again, that's my question...which of these (or other suggested options) might be better at producing a decent semblance of that lower end "feel" of the bass--without a sub--and without too much worry about blowing out speakers?

The specifications I read are similar--and I've learned that specifications don't always tell the "true story" of capability. Hence, my post for experienced users--who have these systems--and/or have gone through this process in the past. Maybe it's too big an ask...but the capability of gear seems to be improving every year, so maybe not...

Thanks!
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While I am a fan of 12 inch drivers for PA, in your case I'd go for the 15 inch driver variants.

I find I like the general tone of 12s for vox and general PA especially if you're using a backline and possibly subs. A PA that uses 15s, for me, may not go as low as it would with subs, the bass response feels better than 12s.

I prefer using a backline and going into the mains for additional support.
 
#29
direwolf333 said:
57 pounds
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...905-as-mk3-15-inch-2200-watt-active-subwoofer
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While I agree with it being light and RCF makes some awesome stuff, if I’m spending $2000 I’m going with the Yorkville ES18P. One will be enough.
We’ve been using the Yorkville LS18Ps (previous model) for about 8 years and nothing but compliments from the listeners and our peers.
Yes, they’re heavy at 137 lbs each, but you get what you pay for and you’ll definitely get results you’re pleased with.
 
#32
I got a new RCF 910 that was super hot to the touch and was drawing tons of power with no music running through it however my RCF sub is great.
QSC HAD an issue where if the speaker was not firmware updated it would overheat and brick itself so I don't trust them.
I use 400 to 500 watts of bass amp and really don't need to run bass through the PA in a bar. Our drummer is loud and I'm loud because of that.
 
#33
A pair of qscs is all I have these days. The vast majority of my gigs are iem, but I have the wedges for stage volume if I ever need that. They're great cabs and fantastic mains but obviously limited by the same physics everything else is. There's plenty of bassists that wouldn't go out with less than a 2x12" and that's just for bass, never mind asking those same speakers to do the whole band. 100 people? Maybe yeah. Your 200-300? Subs.
 
#34
We get a great sound from k8 and a Sub.
We run them hard ...I'd say too hard since I own them.
We put kick and overheads in the P.A.
We put 3 vox plus keys and sax.
Everyone else runs backline.
Easy will do a small courtyard or garden gig but the heavy lift is done by bass cabs and a Sub for above.
As always, I prefer to be pleasantly surprised by the capability rather than expect it.
Be reasonable with expectations...
 
#35
pfschim said:
keep in mind that you don't really need to reproduce the fundamental (lowest note on a 4 string). The QSC K12.2 rate -6db at 50hz. They will work fine for modest volumes in modestly sized venues. although personally, I would still use a dedicated bass amp/cab to truly deliver the low end ... even just a 1x12 cab.

I have 2 K12.2's and always use a small dedicated bass rig (Mesa WD800 into a Berg CN 112) to fill out the low end.
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I’ve done shows with EON 10’s before (small venues) and the harmonics will get through it if you can’t produce the fundamental but….
I would definitely recommend still using a bass rig if only running a pair of powered speakers with 12” drivers.
Especially if you have an acoustic drum kit. If everyone is truly ampless and the drums are e-drums a pair of K12 speakers only for small venues should be fine.

Just my 2 cents based off of some really odd gigs I worked.
I’m all to familiar with the 2k genny and 2 powered speakers for mains gigs.
One particular fond memory was doing a state forest tour for Smokey the Bear and a national park touring bluegrass band.
Lovely people, beautiful environments, it was a hoot.
 
#36
Run K10 for fronts with single sub

Ran k8's as mons.
Outside Beach from gig with a breeze.
The k10's ran only 10 on the dial and were very impressive.
Had an extra mic on toms, overhead and kick.
Mixed from the stage by gtr.

The only things not through the 10's/sub were gtr and bass.
Compliments all round on the sound. (the gtr is very good on these self mixes)

A mates band set up inside to carry on after sun went down and they had RCF and small sub. Do not think it was the best RCF stuff but they struggled..relatively..inside with a 3 piece acousto line up with real bass and drum machine.

Lessons here, imv were,
QSC is easily worth the money. It just delivers.
Having a good engr who knows his stuff can get surprising results out of this kit.
 
#37
Thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate the collective experience here! It's why I come back time after time and read, learn and ask questions, when relevant.

Not unexpectedly, even though I was looking for mains that could do a decent job without subs (that was my primary ask), some of you suggested and would prefer subs for venues where we are near 200-300 people. I do understand.

I like the idea of experimenting with simply bringing my own bass cabinets and using them to help augment the mains--but keeping some of the higher register in the mains for added dispersion/broader presence. In most of the clubs we play, we DO like to leave space for folks on the periphery to be able to talk--that is, as suggested, we are not super loud. But that element of extra bass up front near the stage/dance floor would probably be plenty for our purposes--at least for the bass guitar.

That leaves other parts of the lower frequencies of the band sound (primarily kick drum and some keyboard) that would still need to be run into the PA main--but that may be fine (our keyboard player does a good job staying off the left hand unless it's truly a part of the work, and again, the kick need not be "chest thumping" at the back of the venue). So the demand for those specific lower frequencies, running through the mains might be enough to support areas in closer proximity to the stage/dance area, and the overall demand on the mains would hopefully, not be excessive.

At this point, I am leaning towards the QSC 12's. The brand seems to be favored and appears to hold its value. I'll consider the 15's version as opposed to 12's for our purposes here--as getting a bit more lower end support is what was desired. With that and the bass cabinet extension, it may just do the trick.

Again...many thanks to the group! Hope you all have a wonderful summer playing/performing!
 
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#38
I really would caution against that. You're going to spend a lot of money and I'm fairly sure you'll be left disappointed.

As mentioned above I own a pair of k12.2s and I love them. As I'm the mixer guy for my bands it means I have a cracking little pa system that also doubles as a bass rig when I need to. On the floor, with just bass and a little vocal, covering the stage as monitors the QSCs have more low end than you'd ever need. You can totally run one as backline if you have to carry a room even and they'll do it quite well. On sticks, doing a whole band for that size audience, they'll run out of steam for sure.

Fwiw my hard rock band uses and Alto system of 15" tops and a pair of 18" subs, my pop punk band uses RCF 910s and a single 905ii. I think the QSCs are a little nicer sounding than the rcf rig and quite a lot nicer than the Altos but either system will carry a band better than the QSCs for an audience of 200 people. I'd rather have the Altos!
 
#39
Wayward Son said:
Thank you. This would be possible as I have a D800+ and a pair of Subway 115 cabinets. So, still using the IEM, I suppose I could limit the lower frequencies sent to the PA mains (using the XR18 mixer's HPF/EQ settings), and put my 115 cabinets up front (where a sub would be)? I could use the Pre-DI out on the amp--meaning I could put a lower end of the bass through my 115 cabinets, and leave the PA mains to disperse the higher bass frequencies. Something like that? I guess I'll have to play with that. Might be a good enough solution for our situation.

This would still leave any keyboards, all guitars, vocals and, when outside, select drums to run through the tops. But at least the lower end bass would be full from the cabinets and the higher end might produce a wide feel from additional dispersion through the mains. Interesting. I think I've always, traditionally, thought my amp needs to be behind me. But if I'm all IEM, it probably doesn't matter where the cabinets sit--so long as it helps the overall sound out front. Probably have to play with that--positioning to see what works best.
Click to expand...
I've done this 2 ways. Dead on using the HPF LPF on the mixer and using an Aux to drive kick, keys and bass to the sub. In my case I have a pair of passive 1 x 15 subs. I drove them from a Quilter BB-800. That amp has an XLR in on the back panel which over rides everything except the Mast per Vol. Very handy feature...

If it is just bass and kick, cabs can stay in the backline and out a 10 to 20ms delay on the mains.1ms per foot is the rule of thumb. If keys are in there as well, or if the band is not happy with the stage sound or feel with the subs in the back... put 'em out fron and delay them at 1ms per foot to the location of the kick.

As far as mains go... these days I'd be thinking Yamaha DZR112. They will eat yoir 2 k budget but they will also devour any of the cabs on your list... I would probably not do QSC today... I would definately avoid Alto anything. To many horror stories...
 
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