Parents with screaming kids...

[tZer]

One thing about this thread in particular that's different than other "good parent, bad kids, bad parent" threads is that we seem to be using the isolated incident as a bigger event or as an example of a larger systemic problem with parents and their parenting technique/execution.

The anecdotes offered as evidence of a child's behavior and their parent's lack of apparent or obvious parenting - like the apple-drop vs. predictable child behavior modification discussion - each have so many unknowns that preceded the offending event that they can't effectively support the bigger discussion of parenting in general.

Just like the apple drop vs. parenting methods discussion, each of these anecdotes are completely independent events, each with an infinite array of possible precursory events.

So the parent/child combo in the OP became an example for any and all parents who are in public with an apparently out of control child and are apparently not even trying to do anything to stop it. At any given time, any parent/child combo could become that parent/child combo and will react in whatever fashion is consistent with their circumstances.

And no matter how any of them react to that situation, you can be assured that their actions will be closely monitored and scrutinized by everyone in the immediate vicinity who will each either be empathizing with, or casting scorn upon the parent/child of the moment.

I think the telling thing is how other people are able to deal with such things. Since we've already established that parenting is challenging and subjective, what about how people in general are prepared to deal with things that fall just outside of comfortable for them when moving through life?

I believe those who are fairly balanced or centered - to use some simplistic descriptions - vs. conflicted or angry will tend to allow such situations to blow over while the more typically angry ones will latch onto it as a way to release anger. Once there's an obvious "reason" to be angry, it opens the door to go ahead and be angry.

 

[Relic]

Parents posting here are making some important points about the challenges of raising a child, and I do think a degree of tolerance/patience toward kids acting up is wise to maintain; however, I think a lot of the parents posting here to defend the P.O.S.C.I.P.(Parent Of a Screaming Child In Public,) are sort of missing the OP's point.

To me, the nature of the OP's complaint was not that the child was screaming in public, but that s/he was screaming in public for 30 minutes while the parent did nothing to control it.

I would call that inconsiderate, and assume the family to be dysfunctional and lacking decent parenting skills. But that's just my ignorant non-parent's opinion.

How many minutes of your child screaming in public would you honestly tolerate, as a parent, before trying to do somethingto control your little bundle of joy?

You may be fully right about the mom in this case just being a deadbeat and not caring about the kid's screaming, the thing is that we don't know enough about the mom and kid to know for sure. The little girl in this instance may have been an undisciplined brat, a kid with some emotional issues, or a usually-well behaved kid having a meltdown which all kids are capable of.
Here's my stance on it - kids will sometimes try all sorts of techniques to get what they want and/or to manipulate a parent. In fact, they're downright geniuses. If a kid learns that screaming in public will get them what they want, they'll use it again and again and again... conversely, if they find that they cannot embarrass mom into obedience in front of a busload of people, then mom just took away that tool and more than likely the next bus ride will be much quieter.
What I would have done differently had I been that parent on the bus - I would have apologized to the people around me, explained a little of what was going on and left it at that. The little girl would realize a) screaming isn't an effective tool, b) she'll be in for punishment when she gets home.
I will have have inconvenienced you, sorry about that, but it would be done with the knowledge that the next 100 bus rides will be nice and quiet and no further inconveniencing will be done on either side.

 

[Relic]

This has become an interesting discussion, but parenting technique is still mostly irrelevant to the OP. The crux of the situation is that I'm sure in the 27 minutes that the child was screaming the mother could have exited the bus with the child. The problem is the mother was apparently more concerned with being inconvenienced than with inconveniencing others.

Like it or not, if your child is being obnoxious it IS your fault. You chose to have the child, you chose your methodology of raising said child, and you chose to bring that child into public. How you deal with it is your own business, as long as you do whatever is within your power to stop it ("it" meaning the actions, not the child).

I'm not saying don't bring your child into public, nor am I saying that a "properly" raised child will never act up in public. What I AM saying is that every parent needs to take resposibility for their actions even if that means YOU must be inconvenienced and exit the bus, discipline the child (in WHATEVER manner you see fit), and wait for the next one.

Many people are saying, "don't take the bus if you can't handle screaming kids" and I agree with that on a simply pragmatic basis. However, an obvious retort is "don't have children if you are not prepared to take responsibility for their actions."

Good post, but in regards to the mom getting off the bus - that has EVERYTHING to do with parenting technique. The kid wants off the bus, kid screams, mom gets off the bus. The kid has just learned that screaming = get off bus. Mom inconvenienced a whole bus load of people for 27 mins, true, but she also just taught her daughter that inconveniencing a bus load of people is no tool for manipulating her or getting what she wants. Next bus ride now may very well mean a quiet 3-5 year old and no more inconvenienced people. Do you see what I mean?

 

[LM Bass]

:::Bassist:::
"Its obvious who the parents are in this thread. Children throw tantrums. I agree that perhaps letting the child scream for 30 minutes is excessive, but we do not know the child. This could be status quotient for her. She could be emotionall disturbed. She could be in physical pain... can you be sure she is just being a brat? Often with such behaviour, ignoring it, as the mother was doing, is THE best thing to do. Giving any kind of attention to it is exactly what the child wants. You cannot reward that behaviour.

As for annoying people around her... well, I say tough nuts to them. Children are our future and as members of a given community sometimes they are a burden we must bear. If you must ride public transit, and kudos to those that do, bring an MP3 player and close your eyes. Problem solved. People need to take responsibility for themselves and quit being whiny babies... how ironic!"

 

[TheXym]

+1. I hate agreeing with Latimour. It feels dirty in a bad way.

+1 to Latimour's statements as well, though I can't affirm that it makes me feel dirty in any way, but then I haven't been around him much yet

 

[MakiSupaStar]

+1 to Latimour's statements as well, though I can't affirm that it makes me feel dirty in any way, but then I haven't been around him much yet

You'll see. Agreeing with Latimour makes you shudder in much the same way you shudder when you accidently wash your face with an old man's shower washcloth.

 

[Marlat]

You'll see. Agreeing with Latimour makes you shudder in much the same way you shudder when you accidently wash your face with an old man's shower washcloth.

Actually the effect i'm going for is another kind of cloth, one that TB's teenage readers might have more use for, but your post seems to indicate I am on the right track!

 

[baalroo]

Good post, but in regards to the mom getting off the bus - that has EVERYTHING to do with parenting technique. The kid wants off the bus, kid screams, mom gets off the bus. The kid has just learned that screaming = get off bus. Mom inconvenienced a whole bus load of people for 27 mins, true, but she also just taught her daughter that inconveniencing a bus load of people is no tool for manipulating her or getting what she wants. Next bus ride now may very well mean a quiet 3-5 year old and no more inconvenienced people. Do you see what I mean?

Of course I see your point, but that mother doesn't live in a bubble. If EVERY mother on a bus used this technique then the problem continues on a regular basis. Sure, HER kid doesn't scream about being on the bus next time, but tomorrow it'll be the child in the next seat and a precedent has been set that it's acceptable to allow your child to scream for half an hour in order to prove a point.

I'll continue warily into parenting technique (i am not a parent):
If she removed herself from the bus and continued the same "silent treatment" then they have done what the child wanted (got off the bus) and SURPRISE!!! the situation (sitting at the bus stop) is now more miserable than before for the child. It seems to me that this would be a valuable lesson that "mother knows best." When the next bus comes mother could THEN explain, "Now we will get back on this bus, and if you act up we will have to get back off and wait again, so as not to disturb all of these other nice people." Basically, teaching the child that mother/father will do what he/she chooses and acting out will only PROLONG that activity seems like an elegant solution.

I fail to see how this is not AT LEAST as effective as ONLY giving the child the "silent treatment." Which does teach the child that acting up does not get them what they want, but ALSO teaches them that screaming in a confined space with 30 strangers is acceptable.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Actually the effect i'm going for is another kind of cloth, one that TB's teenage readers might have more use for, but your post seems to indicate I am on the right track!

If your goal is to make the teenage TB'rs associate you with their crusty gym sock, then you are truly a sick man.

 

[EricF]

I don't think having children qualifies your opinion to have more worth than someone who doesn't. You can have your principles of parenting and stick to them. I don't have kids, but if I do, boy they won't be getting away with giving me any trouble.

Before my wife and I had our daughter, she was one of those people who adamantly thought she knew about how kids should behave and how kids should be disciplined. She also thought she knew what the love of your own child would be like. I can't tell you how many times in the last four years she's told me that she had no idea what she was talking about.

I'm sorry, Chris, but you are wrong about this. You just don't know it yet.

Boo hoo. At least one day you can be glad that the kid will grow up and realise how stupid it was to resent someone who only wanted the best for him/her.

It doesn't always work that way, man. :scowl:

Whilst I think that theoretically its possible for someone who doesn't have kids of their own to have an opinion that is equally weighted with someone who does when it comes to matters of direct parenting, I think it would be a fairly rare instance and certainly isn't demonstrated in this thread. That person would probably need to be working with children on a regular basis or perhaps be qualified in child psychology. Again, not something I am seeing in this thread. Falling short of that, I just can't see how on matters of direct parenting, someone's opinion should be given equal weight if they don't have kids. They may have an opinion on the situation, but on the "how to", you would be deluding yourself if you thought that your position of "little to no experience" gives you the same weight of opinion as someone with "years of experience". That applies in almost all areas of life, not just raising kids.

I should add, that the opposite should also be considered. Parents experience with raising kids is experience with raising their kids. It shouldn't be assumed that this is directly applicable to all kids or that what works for their kids will (or will not) work in other situations. Its opinion that should be given weight based on experience, but the level of that experience, relavent to the topic at large, should also not be put out of mind.

Well said, Mr. Latimour. As I've said throughout this thread, all kids are wired differently. What works for one child is not necessarily applicable to another child. Even between my own two daughters, the differences in their behavior (and the required discplinary measures) are dramatic. As Relic has said, it takes a full tool box.

Parents posting here are making some important points about the challenges of raising a child, and I do think a degree of tolerance/patience toward kids acting up is wise to maintain; however, I think a lot of the parents posting here to defend the P.O.S.C.I.P.(Parent Of a Screaming Child In Public,) are sort of missing the OP's point.

To me, the nature of the OP's complaint was not that the child was screaming in public, but that s/he was screaming in public for 30 minutes while the parent did nothing to control it.

I would call that inconsiderate, and assume the family to be dysfunctional and lacking decent parenting skills. But that's just my ignorant non-parent's opinion.

How many minutes of your child screaming in public would you honestly tolerate, as a parent, before trying to do somethingto control your little bundle of joy?

I'm certainly someone who does their best to keep their kids contained and quiet when in a public environment, but there are occasions where - because of any number of issues - a crying/whining/screaming child is the lesser of the available evils.

In the case of the OP's example, maybe the mother wasn't doing everything she should/could have done, but maybe she was making a choice that was actually less disturbing for the other passengers that her other options based on the nature of the child.

My point from the start (as with most of the partents that have posted) is not that it's okay to let a child go ape-****-crazy just because he's a child, but that sometimes there's more going on than just initial appearances.

 

[Relic]

Of course I see your point, but that mother doesn't live in a bubble. If EVERY mother on a bus used this technique then the problem continues on a regular basis. Sure, HER kid doesn't scream about being on the bus next time, but tomorrow it'll be the child in the next seat and a precedent has been set that it's acceptable to allow your child to scream for half an hour in order to prove a point.

I'll continue warily into parenting technique (i am not a parent):
If she removed herself from the bus and continued the same "silent treatment" then they have done what the child wanted (got off the bus) and SURPRISE!!! the situation (sitting at the bus stop) is now more miserable than before for the child. It seems to me that this would be a valuable lesson that "mother knows best." When the next bus comes mother could THEN explain, "Now we will get back on this bus, and if you act up we will have to get back off and wait again, so as not to disturb all of these other nice people." Basically, teaching the child that mother/father will do what he/she chooses and acting out will only PROLONG that activity seems like an elegant solution.

I fail to see how this is not AT LEAST as effective as ONLY giving the child the "silent treatment." Which does teach the child that acting up does not get them what they want, but ALSO teaches them that screaming in a confined space with 30 strangers is acceptable.

Yeah in a perfect world every kid and parent are going to act in the exact same and predictable way, but that's not the reality of it. What you'll see is a parent smacking a kid on the @$$ for screaming, you'll see a parent bribing a kid w/ a toy or candy to stop screaming, and on and on and they all might work at the moment. But which one is the best in the long run? For me, it's not letting the kid's behavior manipulate me.
If mom kept on getting off and on, off and on, (which may very well work BTW) then who's leading and who's following at that point? The kid is now calling the shots - her behavior is forcing mom off the bus. Yep, sitting at a bus stop may be unpleasant for both, BUT a kid doesn't always do things for tangible, concrete results, sometimes it's simply to manipulate a parent.
This is why I feel that this mom did the best thing - she did NOT allow the little girl to dictate what they do. Mom stuck to her guns and likely gave the little one a punishment once out of the bus.

 

[EricF]

Of course I see your point, but that mother doesn't live in a bubble. If EVERY mother on a bus used this technique then the problem continues on a regular basis. Sure, HER kid doesn't scream about being on the bus next time, but tomorrow it'll be the child in the next seat and a precedent has been set that it's acceptable to allow your child to scream for half an hour in order to prove a point.

I'll continue warily into parenting technique (i am not a parent):
If she removed herself from the bus and continued the same "silent treatment" then they have done what the child wanted (got off the bus) and SURPRISE!!! the situation (sitting at the bus stop) is now more miserable than before for the child. It seems to me that this would be a valuable lesson that "mother knows best." When the next bus comes mother could THEN explain, "Now we will get back on this bus, and if you act up we will have to get back off and wait again, so as not to disturb all of these other nice people." Basically, teaching the child that mother/father will do what he/she chooses and acting out will only PROLONG that activity seems like an elegant solution.

I fail to see how this is not AT LEAST as effective as ONLY giving the child the "silent treatment." Which does teach the child that acting up does not get them what they want, but ALSO teaches them that screaming in a confined space with 30 strangers is acceptable.

In the OP's story, the mother DID talk to the child after they got off the bus. For all we know, the child got a severe beating when they got home...or maybe a time-out...or the loss of a favorite toy. We just don't know the whole story.

As Relic said, kids will work you with every bit of crafty manipulation and button-pushing they can dream up and will do their best to wear you out any way they can to get their way.

 

[Chriss62]

In the OP's story, the mother DID talk to the child after they got off the bus. For all we know, the child got a severe beating when they got home.

At least it's some form of attention...

 

[EricF]

At least it's some form of attention...

Depending on the situation, attention - negative or positive - is not always the answer to a particular behavior. It all depends on the child and the situation.

 

[ahkiatt]

Just lock those little spawns of Satan in your dungeon.


No one can hear you scream from here, boy.

 

[Eilif]

Mom stuck to her guns and likely gave the little one a punishment once out of the bus.

Forgive me not reading the entire thread, I'll jump in here...

I would disagree with this. Though children are probably not many years off, I have no kids now, so my opinion may be of limited use. However I have worked with poorly behaved kids (and good behaved kids) at both ends of the socio-ecomic spectrum. From Naperville, to inner city Chicago, and IMHO many of the problems related to parenting are the same.

Sometimes kids fall out and there is nothing you can do about it, and some kids do have medical/emotional/mental problems, but having observed hundreds of these types of occasions and the parental responses to it, I believe that I can say with some certainty, that parenting usually (though not always) has alot to do with it.

As to your statement, I think, it's a good bet that the parent in this situation did not punish the child after the event. Dozens of times I've watched parents ignore a childs bad behavior until the parent becomes angry, and they they angriliy curse the child or strike the child. This is bad parenting 101. Trying to reason with a 3 year old as though they were an adult is also stupid.

Among (many) other things, proper parenting (and the way I was raised, thankfully) involves telling the child what do do and what the consequences will be, and then carrying out those consequences.

Ignoring bad behavior, or trying to control a child with random anger-fueled outbursts of hurtfull words or violence (IMHO, not all corpral punishment is violence) is bad parenting, and yet in my work environment I see it every single day.

Unfortunately becoming a parent is very nearly the easiest major life decision to make, and there aren't nearly enough resources to teach proper parenting (assuming parents would show up) to all the new parents who did not get good parenting models from their own parents.

What's the solution, it's unique for each situation, but I'm not letting the parents off the hook.

Edit: having read back a few pages, I want to add that "theXym" pretty much summed up what I was trying to say in post 197. That's almost exactly how I was raised, and that's pretty much the model for how I want to parent my kids. Kudos to you sir. I wish more of the parents I come in contact with had your level-headedness and Consistency.

 

[Relic]

Forgive me not reading the entire thread, I'll jump in here...

I would disagree with this. Though children are probably not many years off, I have no kids now, so my opinion may be of limited use. However I have worked with poorly behaved kids (and good behaved kids) at both ends of the socio-ecomic spectrum. From Naperville, to inner city Chicago, and IMHO many of the problems related to parenting are the same.

Sometimes kids fall out and there is nothing you can do about it, and some kids do have medical/emotional/mental problems, but having observed hundreds of these types of occasions and the parental responses to it, I believe that I can say with some certainty, that parenting usually (though not always) has alot to do with it.

As to your statement, I think, it's a good bet that the parent in this situation did not punish the child after the event. Dozens of times I've watched parents ignore a childs bad behavior until the parent becomes angry, and they they angriliy curse the child or strike the child. This is bad parenting 101. Trying to reason with a 3 year old as though they were an adult is also stupid.

Among (many) other things, proper parenting (and the way I was raised, thankfully) involves telling the child what do do and what the consequences will be, and then carrying out those consequences.

Ignoring bad behavior, or trying to control a child with random anger-fueled outbursts of hurtfull words or violence (IMHO, not all corpral punishment is violence) is bad parenting, and yet in my work environment I see it every single day.

Unfortunately becoming a parent is very nearly the easiest major life decision to make, and there aren't nearly enough resources to teach proper parenting (assuming parents would show up) to all the new parents who did not get good parenting models from their own parents.

What's the solution, it's unique for each situation, but I'm not letting the parents off the hook.

I think though that we're all assuming a lot here in regards to the OP. We truly have no idea what the back-story to mom and kid is/was.
But I'll just say this - if you are quoting me as though what I said was wrong, you're missing my point. My point is that parenting requires thinking outside the box, it requires CONSISTENCY which you have alluded to in your post and requires a parent to actually take a role and be proactive and not just reactive.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you go back and read some of my earlier posts, I suspect that we may actually be on the same page.

 

[tZer]

Beyond, but related to the scope of this discussion is the fact that each individual has the ability to choose how they process the situation at hand. Those who can choose to not let even annoying circumstances to put them off are taking responsibility for their own emotions. Those who choose to allow the circumstances to dictate their mood are putting responsibility for their feelings into something they have absolutely no control over whatsoever.

Who is behaving more responsibly? The person who is choosing to take personal responsibility for their emotions and simply deal with the reality of the situation at hand without it causing them to devolve into anger or the one who so easily can be angered by things outside of their control because they choose to react that way?

This idea transcends the very isolated and specific situation and speaks to how people in general blame the world for their bad mood when the reality is they are 100% responsible for it. If it were not a screaming child and an apparently lackluster parent, it'd be the traffic or the fact that the bus was early/late or...

 

[EricF]

Forgive me not reading the entire thread, I'll jump in here...

What's the solution, it's unique for each situation, but I'm not letting the parents off the hook.

Without reading the whole thread, I think you're missing the point that most of us parents have made.

No one has let parents off the hook - quite the opposite, in fact. The point made has been that there MAY have been other issues involved with the OP's story that justify the mother's behavior in this situation. As you said yourself, the solution is unique for every sitation. Not one of us - not even the OP - knows what happened either before or after the half-hour encouter between the OP and the screaming-kid-on-the-bus incident. Because of that, we can't really determine whether the mother was being neglectful or conscientious with her child.

 

[mrokern]

Frankly, I tried screaming in public once as a kid. Got the snot spanked out of me by my father. Never did it again. Love my parents to this day, and am a well-adjusted adult.

Not to say that there aren't medical issues that could have caused this (lord knows I saw enough poor kids with such problems pass through my mom's classroom over the years), but there are a lot of...well....brats out there today.

My mom had a 5 year old tell her, "**** you, *****" in her last year of teaching. If I'd tried that as a kid I wouldn't have been able to sit for a month, and I'd have bloody well deserved it. This kid's parent said, "Yeah, he's been talking like that at home. We can't do anything about it." Screw those folks, they shouldn't have been allowed to breed.

As always, JMO.

-Mark