Paring Cabs

[Bassmec]

IMO no one who understands the science of acoustics would make that statement.

For myself I very much understand the science of why this over simplistic view of phase response twists not aligning precisely can be a problem.
but when in a controlled environment like a studio, mixing different speakers and other non phase coherent sources such as DI's of various descriptions. with the help of for instance little labs phase tools, waves phase measuring tools, other phase effecting tools such as eq's etc. its all about why us recording engineers get the big bucks mate.
Lest we over simplify and become unnecessarily dogmatic. after all even a legendary 16t phil jones cab would disperse mid far better if all those little 5" drivers where arranged vertically somehow.
Understanding which laws of acoustics I was breaking never held me back.
If it sounds good, it is good.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

but when in a controlled environment like a studio, mixing different speakers and other non phase coherent sources such as DI's of various descriptions. with the help of for instance little labs phase tools, waves phase measuring tools, other phase effecting tools such as eq's etc. its all about why us recording engineers get the big bucks mate.:

Of course. You'd be the equivalent of chef, mixing various ingredients to get a nice tasty dish. But you have to know what works together and what doesn't. Otherwise you might end up with haggis.

 

[jungleheat]

IMO no one who understands the science of acoustics would make that statement.

You're welcome to your opinion. Even if it's wrong.

A mid 50s Fender Tweed amp should NOT sound good, IF you are going by "science". BUT, if you let your ears take over, they're amazing. Just one example of how theory and practice don't always match up.

To put it another way, you don't have to know the physics of why the sun rises every morning and how the light gets to your eyes and then your brain, etc... to make a beautiful painting of it.

If it sounds good, it is good.

Indeed.

Of course. You'd be the equivalent of chef, mixing various ingredients to get a nice tasty dish. But you have to know what works together and what doesn't. Otherwise you might end up with haggis.

You only end up with haggis if you start with haggis. Maybe your problem is you're starting with haggis?

And again, you don't have to know WHY 2 ingredients work well together. I guarantee my mom has no idea about the chemistry at play when she is cooking, and yet outside of a fancy restaurant, she is one of the best cooks whose food I have eaten. But don't take my word for it, ask the countless dinner and party guests she's had over the years who rave about her cooking all the time. She doesn't even use recipes unless she's trying something new. Things are always a bit different, and yet always the same. That edge of unpredictability keeps things interesting.

Bass can and should be a fire-breathing, earthy, unpredictable, exciting thing, and when you get too bogged down in the science "do's and dont's" (which are really only GUIDELINES, we're talking about ART here), you risk losing a lot of that if you aren't careful.

Saying you should NEVER use different types of cabs together flies in the face of the 1000s of bassists who have been doing so for decades, and often very successfully.

As far as your "IMO" statement, to me, the science is just a tool. I will use it as far as it helps me get where I'm going. Beyond that, I'm going to use my creative instincts, which have served me pretty well for the most part over the last couple decades. Science alone is not going to create Dark Side of the Moon or Abbey Road. I LIKE science, but I don't let it consume me, as it seems to consume you. I don't think I've ever seen you say ANYTHING about actual music.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Jungleheat I would have thought that in the four months you've been a member here you would have learned who Bill is and what he does for a living. He KNOWS what you only think you know. I'd stop arguing with an expert in his field.

 

[silky smoove]

A mid 50s Fender Tweed amp should NOT sound good, IF you are going by "science". BUT, if you let your ears take over, they're amazing. Just one example of how theory and practice don't always match up.

You anti-science guys are hilarious at best. Science will tell you exactly how and why a mid 50s Fender Tweed amp sounds the way it does. Your highly suggestive opinion as to whether or not that sounds good is of no consequence. One is objective, the other is subjective.

It's all about consistency, which I directed you towards earlier in the thread...

 

[jungleheat]

LOL, who said I was anti-science? You can use it to a certain point, but after that you have to go with your ears.

BMP, are you seriously suggesting that I trust some random guy on the internet that designs speaker cabs over my own ears? Sorry, but the ears are going to win every time.

As far as consistency, you're only going to have consistency to the extent that the venues you play at are consistent. There are SOOO many variables to live MI sound that if you tried to "perfect" all of them, you would be chasing your tail forever. If you want to play only outdoor spaces with a reasonable volume band and no PA support for instruments, matching or non-matching cabs might turn out to be a key factor. Or not. Really the same goes for any situation.

What do phasing issues do? They boost and/or cut certain frequencies. What does using cabs with different frequency responses do? The exact same thing. It's all just different paths to get to the same place.

Here's what the test should be... does one cab by itself sound better than 2 different cabs together? If it does, 2 of that cab would preferable. If not, then it wouldn't. Obviously the more cabs you try this with, the more informed choice you will be able to make.

BTW, you guys DO know there's an effect called a phaser that people use ON PURPOSE, right? That's just one example of how phase effects can be desirable in MI amplification.

 

[Dustin Teel]

I think the main thing is that matching cabs gives better dispersion and you are less likely to experience frequency cancellation.

So while a 410 on top of a 115 may "sound good/better" on stage, it is unlikely that it would sound better out in the audience vs. two 2x10s stacked vertically, staggered 12s, 2x15s, or any other vertical speaker cabinet arrangement with drivers of identical diameter.

Just because something sounds good does not mean it is good. Refer to the several posts about guys dialing in "bedroom" tone and then trying to gig with it.

The 17 year old kid in the local punk band with his 410 sitting on the ground and his mids totally scooped with smiley face EQ probably THINKS he sounds rockin....

 

[jungleheat]

Maybe it wouldn't sound better in the audience. That's pretty much going to be on a case by case basis for the most part, depending on room acoustics, how far back on the stage you are, proximity to walls, what kind of tone you like, etc... Also, in my world, the places I'm most likely to play, the bass speakers are mainly a monitor system for the bassist and most of the volume is handled by the PA. I'm talking small/medium typical clubs here in the DC area. so how it sounds to the audience isn't necessarily a big factor anyway.

I do know for one thing, when I first used my Trace 2x10 with my Carvin 1x15 at practice, after ONLY using the 1x15 prior to that, the drummer who is on the other end of the room said he could hear me a lot better. Keeping in mind that I would usually put the 15 on a piano bench when by itself, I don't think ear height speakers had much to do with it. And I wasn't really playing any louder either. I attribute it mainly to splitting the power into 2 separate cabs (thus having more headroom) and also to the tone being a bit more "spread out" in the frequency spectrum (which also goes together with splitting the power into the 2 cabs). I also know I don't have to play with the tone knobs as much with the 2 cabs as I do with one.

At any rate, I'm hardly a 17 yo punk kid. I mostly listen to progressive rock, fusion, and a big variety of other stuff, usually with pretty good production values. I also grew up surrounded by fairly high end (for mortals) stereo equipment, so I know good sound pretty well. When you can walk down the hall and listen to a vintage McIntosh amp powering a set of Martin Logan electrostatics whenever you want, you're probably not going to settle for just "any" sound quality.

And to talk a little bit more about "spreading out" the tone, it's kind of like how you could have a cranked up little ghetto blaster and have to yell over it to be heard, but if you have a high quality full range stereo you could have it even louder and be able to carry on a conversation at normal levels, because the sound isn't all focused in one narrow range. I know the response from some will be "different sized drivers don't have different frequency response" (which is clearly not true anyway), but at the very least these 2 particular Trace cabs that I have, certainly do, because they sound pretty different to each other.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

BMP, are you seriously suggesting that I trust some random guy on the internet that designs speaker cabs over my own ears?

FWIW I primarily make my living designing speakers, both for the DIY builder and for commercial speaker manufacturers. If you haven't played through a cab I designed chances are you've heard one. Which I am not at liberty to say, as no manufacturer that doesn't have engineers on payroll, which is most of them, wants the public to be aware of that fact.
My side gigs are as a consulting acoustical engineer (@ $100 an hour) and as a bass player.

What do you do for a living?

 

[smgleitch]

I love these threads. Now I will be the first to say that I truly don't understand the science behind any of this, but I will say some combinations work great and others don't. There is a lot of money being made by cabinet manufacturers which design cabs with speakers of different size. Some are the best on the market. I personally play a bergantino stack. I have a 112 over a 210. Two separate cabs with drivers of different size. Now maybe I am missng the point here but my rig is awesome. Not just by my standards, but ever sound Guy and other player that has heard it. I get nothing other than pure joy in playing on my non matching cabs.

Now I can't say that it always works. There is a beauty in the sound of an 810 vs a 410 over 115, but some mix matched cabs perform beautifully together.

 

[grass132456]

So the best bet is to get another speaker that is exactly the same. Getting anything else is a bit risky right?

 

[BassmanPaul]

You missed out writing articles for magazines Bill.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

So the best bet is to get another speaker that is exactly the same. Getting anything else is a bit risky right?

Risky in that there's no way to predict the result.

You missed out writing articles for magazines Bill.

+1, including equipment reviews. I've well over a hundred speaker oriented publishing credits.

 

[BassmanPaul]

So the best bet is to get another speaker that is exactly the same. Getting anything else is a bit risky right?

As was basically said earlier if you have a cabinet you like a second will only sound better.

 

[jungleheat]

Now maybe I am missng the point here but my rig is awesome. Not just by my standards, but ever sound Guy and other player that has heard it. I get nothing other than pure joy in playing on my non matching cabs.

"No, your ears are wrong. Science says so. Go back to flipping burgers you hack."

Using different cabs is no more risky than adding a particular head or preamp, effect, etc... in that you may not like how it sounds. But presumably in most cases you would try it out first (preferably in conjunction with what you already have).

If science was everything, everyone would basically just be using a PA for their bass amp. High power (probably with bi or tri-amping thrown in), low distortion, full range, reasonably flat response. But how many people actually do that or want that? And how many people would rather play a V4 through a vintage 2x15 instead? You can't necessarily apply hi-fi concepts to MI sound. Sometimes they apply, sometimes everything is turned on it's head. Guitarists are going for lower and lower wattage amps to get MORE distortion at lower levels. Why? Because it can sound awesome when done right. The "standard" for bass is a midrangey as hell giant cab and an all tube head that's known for a decent amount of breakup. When was the last time you walked into a high end stereo shop and saw a big honkin pair of 8x10s powered by a giant tube amp pushed into distortion?

Again, the science is important, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Some people here really need to get out more maybe and talk less about this stuff and do it more. I can't believe someone actually basically implied that if it sounds good it's NOT good. Music, in the end goes solely through our ears, and most people aren't crunching numbers or looking at test instrument readouts while that is going on. "Oh, sir, your phase alignment is off by 12-15 degrees between 600 and 800Hz, this is unacceptable!" No, it either sounds good or it doesn't.

I'll end with this question...

How many of you have your bass amp setup to move forward and backward in relation to the PA depending on what frequency you happen to be playing at the time? Or at least have a delay setup on the PA that varies with the frequency you are playing, so that when the sound from your amp hits the audience, the sound from the PA is hitting them at the same time?

 

[GrowlerBox]

"No, your ears are wrong. Science says so. Go back to flipping burgers you hack."

No-one has said (and if they have, they shouldn't have) that a pair of mismatched cabinets can never, under any circumstances, sound good, or better than either cabinet alone, or even better than a pair of either cabinet. Some combinations will in fact be well-matched, and acoustic principles will be able to describe why that might be the case with those particular cabinets in those particular circumstances.

However, in general, given that it is not often the case that there will be a reliable witness playing the particular mismatch you have in mind with the same bass and amp setup and in the same rooms, you will have fewer problems getting a pair of matched cabinets to sound good in a wide variety of situations than a mismatched pair. With the possible exception of Tom Bowlus, very few have a sufficiently large range of cabinets available to allow them to engage in the sorts of ad hoc experiments necessary to be sure that a given pair will work. It sounds like you did well with your pair, but your experience is not generalisable. Acoustic physics is.

 

[wcriley]

If science was everything, everyone would basically just be using a PA for their bass amp. High power (probably with bi or tri-amping thrown in), low distortion, full range, reasonably flat response. But how many people actually do that or want that? And how many people would rather play a V4 through a vintage 2x15 instead?

There are quite a few hi-fi cab users on here, so I don't think I'm alone in this: I MUCH prefer having a hi-fi PA-type cab with good mid dispersion. I don't want distortion from my amp, I have pedals for that. A V4 is fine, but it's definitely a one trick pony when turned up. I'd rather be able to cop any sound that pops into my brain. The only way I've found to accomplish that is to have a reasonably flat sounding system, plenty of power and EQ capability, and pedals with decent digital models.

I can't EQ phase problems out of poor cabs. Nor can I cop the sound of various amp and speaker combinations without resonably flat cabs.

And as for this:

How many of you have your bass amp setup to move forward and backward in relation to the PA depending on what frequency you happen to be playing at the time? Or at least have a delay setup on the PA that varies with the frequency you are playing, so that when the sound from your amp hits the audience, the sound from the PA is hitting them at the same time?

If I'm in the sound system, no one in the audience should be able to hear my stage rig. If they can, I'm too loud onstage and causing phasing problems with the subs. If the audience can hear my stage sound, I don't belong in the system.

 

[Crabby]

It amazes me how this topic never fails to cause hurt feelings and strong emotions. the science behind the recommendation that two identical cabs will have more predictable results then a pair of non matching cabs is really not debatable. But that doesn't mean some pairings of non matched cabs will please the ears of some people. And unless you are able to compare a non matched set of cabs to a matched set side by side, you can't really know for yourself can you.

So if this issue is of concern to you, go set up a bunch of cabs in a store and perform some critical listening and decide what you like. But don't live in denial of scientific truths simply to defend your gear choices. That just makes you look silly.

 

[JimmyM]

There are quite a few hi-fi cab users on here, so I don't think I'm alone in this: I MUCH prefer having a hi-fi PA-type cab with good mid dispersion. I don't want distortion from my amp, I have pedals for that. A V4 is fine, but it's definitely a one trick pony when turned up.

I never had a problem getting any different sound out of a V4 or V4B that I wanted. Used one as my only stage amp for well over 10 years. As a matter of fact, I've yet to ever play an amp that was truly a one trick pony.

 

[1n3]

"No, your ears are wrong. Science says so. Go back to flipping burgers you hack."

...If science was everything, everyone would basically just be using a PA for their bass amp.

Straw man arguments.

It amazes me how this topic never fails to cause hurt feelings and strong emotions. the science behind the recommendation that two identical cabs will have more predictable results then a pair of non matching cabs is really not debatable. But that doesn't mean some pairings of non matched cabs will please the ears of some people. And unless you are able to compare a non matched set of cabs to a matched set side by side, you can't really know for yourself can you.

So if this issue is of concern to you, go set up a bunch of cabs in a store and perform some critical listening and decide what you like. But don't live in denial of scientific truths simply to defend your gear choices. That just makes you look silly.

+1

BTW, "science" is the wrong word in this context. This is engineering - the application of existing technical knowledge and methods.