HUGE +1, and well well worded- this is exactly the point. Why some people feel it necessary to argue against is a mystery to me.
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Paring Cabs
- Thread starter grass132456
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HUGE +1, and well well worded- this is exactly the point. Why some people feel it necessary to argue against is a mystery to me.
+10
Risk of bad sound (esp out in the house) is decreased by following a few simple guidelines like using matched cabs etc. It's a probability thing. How much it matters to an individual is for him to decide. However, the only way to decide based on logic would be to hear and compare rigs from multiple points out in the crowd. Saying that adding a 210 to a 115 improved the sound is not relevant, since the increase in overall volume alone will make things sound better from most vantage points. The real question in that context is whether adding a 2nd 15 would have been even better.
billfitzmaurice
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I'm sure that Freud has a term to describe it. This quote from Tom Danley, also one of those 'engineer types' is appropriate:
Often the strength of an opinion seems inversely related to any first hand knowledge or experience of the subject. The cost I suppose of letting marketing agents educate them on 'what can be done'.
I used a mixed cab setup for years and was never happy but didn't know why. I always felt that the best qualities of my Eden 210 and 115 were masked when ran together. Buying my first pair of matched 112 cabs blew my mind. I then went to a stack of two 115 cabs and was happier still. I now use a Mesa 412 but have tried to mix and match different cabs and am never happy with the results now that my ears are aware to how good a set of matched cabs can sound.
This stuff is all about compromising different principles, right?
Example. Mismatched cabs risk various acoustic problems which as I understand it can result in inconsistent sound at different places in a venue and uneven frequency response due to phase cancellations.
On the other hand, if your amp is too small in a situation and you can't afford or justify an upgrade you may choose mismatched cabs as better than being underpowered.
Example. Mismatched cabs risk various acoustic problems which as I understand it can result in inconsistent sound at different places in a venue and uneven frequency response due to phase cancellations.
On the other hand, if your amp is too small in a situation and you can't afford or justify an upgrade you may choose mismatched cabs as better than being underpowered.
Now I have a 118 I put together and asking around and talking to other players, they say a 210 is a great way to complement the 118. Any comments?
billfitzmaurice
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It's exactly what you do not want. A good complement to a 118 would be a 2x6 or 2x8, vertically aligned, crossed over either electronically (biamped) or passively at 800Hz. The 2x10 won't have either the midrange extension or dispersion of sixes or eights, while the 2x10 cab size is at least four times what's necessary, being as large as it is to allow it to run down to at least 80Hz.
- Jun 21, 2008
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OK, If anyone's still reading this thread I have a new scenario. I saw a great deal on Ebay for a 1x15 to go with my 4x10...
And then I came across this thread, and others like it... my first exposure to the subject of mismatched cabs.
So... I've read pages of the arguments against mismatching. And then there's the subject of biamping!
Here's my question: Is biamping as simple as using a separate amp (and its EQ) for each cabinet?
In my case, I have a 300w 1x15 Trace combo, an 800w Trace 1048 4x10 cab, and a plan to buy an Orange Terror Bass 500 head.
After reading all the arguments, I'm thinking I'd be better off keeping the combo, and connecting in parallel with it and the Orange/4x10 setup.
Any thoughts?
And then I came across this thread, and others like it... my first exposure to the subject of mismatched cabs.
So... I've read pages of the arguments against mismatching. And then there's the subject of biamping!
Here's my question: Is biamping as simple as using a separate amp (and its EQ) for each cabinet?
In my case, I have a 300w 1x15 Trace combo, an 800w Trace 1048 4x10 cab, and a plan to buy an Orange Terror Bass 500 head.
After reading all the arguments, I'm thinking I'd be better off keeping the combo, and connecting in parallel with it and the Orange/4x10 setup.
Any thoughts?
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Bi amping is when you have 1 amp control the hi frequencies and another amp control the low frequencies
@jungleheat
i fail to see why you feel the need to be so rude to another TBer? especially to some1 who really doesnt need to be here for his own benefit, Bill takes from his own time to answers many questions from fellow TBers and deserves better than what you have thrown his way.
+1 to vertically aligned identical cabs, (tried miss matching 2x10 with 1x15 due to financial constraints, and lack of knowlegde, was not pleased with the results, read and learned here, saved up some money and sorted it out, and am happy now)
i fail to see why you feel the need to be so rude to another TBer? especially to some1 who really doesnt need to be here for his own benefit, Bill takes from his own time to answers many questions from fellow TBers and deserves better than what you have thrown his way.
+1 to vertically aligned identical cabs, (tried miss matching 2x10 with 1x15 due to financial constraints, and lack of knowlegde, was not pleased with the results, read and learned here, saved up some money and sorted it out, and am happy now)
billfitzmaurice
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No. Bi-amping is when an electronic crossover is used to split the signal from a pre-amp into two bands, each sent to a different power amp, each power amp driving a cab designed to work optimally within the bandwidth it reproduces.
You'll end up with two dissimilar rigs that both operate in the same bandwidth, alternately augmenting and detracting from each other at different frequencies.
Who's being rude? He's the one implying that since I don't design cabs for a living that obviously there's no way I could at all have ANY idea about how 2 cabs might work together. But how many of your favorite bassists design cabs for a living? Somehow I bet all or most of them have sounds that you really like anyway.
What BFM fails to realize is that the science is only a means to an end and not an end in and of itself. He seems to have become completely disconnected from the musical aspect of playing.
Ok, so how many combinations of 15s and 10s did you try before you gave up? More than 1 or 2 pairs? Who knows, maybe the 3rd pair would have been the magic bullet. Likewise, whatever you current cab is, maybe there's another even better one that you haven't tried yet.
That's the TYPICAL way to bi-amp (using a dedicated crossover), but it's not the ONLY way. Bi-amping means just that. Having 2 amps and having them reproduce 2 different signals from the same source. Also, "optimally" comes in degrees.
You're not very good at thinking outside the box (no pun intended). Who's saying they will operate in the same bandwidth? It depends on how you set them. There's nothing stopping you from having one with the bass flat or boosted and the treble cut and having the other be the reverse of that. Maybe one amp has a big fat low end while the other has sparkly shimmery highs. So you cut what each amp doesn't do well, and run it into your 2 cabs accordingly.
Also, even in your "just run both amps as normal, just simultaneously" situation, when you say "detracting" you really should be saying "subtracting".
My own experience with using disparate setups for the same instrument (albeit mostly with guitar) indicates that doing this tends to "smooth out" the sound of each amp into a pleasing whole. This works especially well with distorted guitar, because of all the various harmonics present. The different EQ curves, speaker frequency response, etc... can often make for a combination that is much more interesting than either setup by itself, giving you a big, rich tone.
Surely, not all combinations will add and subtract in the right places to work with each other. If you had 2 cabs that both had a big peak at 2k, it would be a one way ticket to ice pick city. But if one did, while the other had a dip there or near there, it could actually give you an overall flatter response when taken as a whole. I'm not just speaking theoretically, I have done this countless times, and am almost always pleased with the results. Surprisingly so in a lot of cases, because you can use "lower quality" gear and get it to sound far better than it would on it's own, and often even better than a single piece of expensive gear could on it's own. The other thing is that usually different types of cab will have overlapping but not identical frequency response, which is usually going to give you a wider range than a single cab typically could.
So the only "risky" part of using different types of cabs together is that it might be totally awesome, and it might not. That experimentation is part of the fun of being a musician. And most stores will have a variety of stuff you can try out and experiment with before spending any money. if you're serious about buying cabs, take your head and your bass, go to a music store with a decent selection, and try out various combinations and see what works FOR YOU.
I just don't understand why the matching cabs mafia promotes matching cabs like their life depends on it. What is their vested interest in making sure no one even TRIES 2 different cabs together?
Anyway, this is talkBASS not talkENGINEERING, so I'm going to tend to lean towards the musical/creative side of things in most cases. But hey, I just play music because it's what I live for and has been for 2 plus decades, so *** do I know?
i think it's just that two mismatched cabs will usually be bigger and louder than either one by itself, so the stack is "better" in that respect.
the real question is about comparing the matched stack with the mis-matched one.
the real question is about comparing the matched stack with the mis-matched one.
LOL, just LOL
+1 (and the knowledge and understanding to do so objectively, or to know that 1 does not have the knowledge and understanding-and accept the opinions and research of those that do)
i may be on my own here but i do feel that you have been quite rude, re read your previous posts.
as for combinations of cabs i have tried.. i will be honest, not that many, but coming from many years of playing guitar in various bands with various bass players and rigs has given me a good idea of what is available and what can work.
when i started playing bass in the band situation myself i tried combining 10s with a few 15" drivers, delved into a lil random box stuffing due to financial restraints, was never really happy with the results (using my ears, not science), and rigs i had played next to on stage rarely blew me away, i then sought to get better understanding before deciding how to deal with my sound once and for all, as you say
i rapidly learned that i do not have the scientific mind to be able to design my own rig, researched BFM designs, fEARful, and many other commercial offerings.
i liked the BFM designs, have not read any bad things about his designs and seriously considered building a 2x12 or a 2x15 Jack, in the end tho i considered my woodworking ability to be less than what required to get a satisfactory result, looked in detail a fEARful designs, alot more achievable by design, i then took the plunge and ended up with a stack that i have been exceptionally happy with, a well designed piece of kit that i built myself, tight sounding, punchy, full and round, and LOUD, everything i had been looking for. to this end i have the likes of BFM, greenboy, duke etc etc to thank for their participation on TB for making me aware, not thro much direct questioning but by reading many many threads on many subjects here on TB, BFM forum and the fEARful forum.
know oneself, and be honest with yourself, we all have differing levels of understanding of the science behind it all, we all have ears and know what we like the sound of, but the wisdom to strike a happy medium that can get you where you want to go is the most important factor IMO FWIW, and yes YMMV
