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Paring Cabs
- Thread starter grass132456
- Start date
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
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- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
It at least makes sense acoustically, as a 210 generally doesn't have higher output than a 115. The only thing that makes sense with a 410/115 is how pretty it looks in ad copy. And from a marketing standpoint that does make a lot of sense, as symmetry is pleasing to the eye, and what sells gear is looks.
Okay, I am admittedly ignorant on the science involved. But what I DO know is this:
I bought a Markbass CMD102P combo amp about 4 years ago. It sounded great. About 2 years ago I bought a Markbass Traveler 115 extension cab. Result? It sounds MUCH better to my ears using those "mismatched" cabs together than using either by itself.
Might it sound even better if I had paired the combo with another 210 extension cab? Maybe. But personally, I love the blend of the 210/115. Just my opinion? Yes. But ultimately, that is the opinion that matters most to me and my ears...
I bought a Markbass CMD102P combo amp about 4 years ago. It sounded great. About 2 years ago I bought a Markbass Traveler 115 extension cab. Result? It sounds MUCH better to my ears using those "mismatched" cabs together than using either by itself.
Might it sound even better if I had paired the combo with another 210 extension cab? Maybe. But personally, I love the blend of the 210/115. Just my opinion? Yes. But ultimately, that is the opinion that matters most to me and my ears...
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
If you search my posts on the subject going back at least six years I have always stated that this is almost always the case. What you don't know is how two of the combos or two of the 115 extensions together would sound in comparison to the mixed setup.
With all due respect...I keep seeing this point made (by multiple people), but I have yet to read a post where a player (who is not a builder or an engineer) has actually done a comparison between a mixed cab set up and a twin cab set up and has confirmed that infact the twin set up sounds significantly better.
I dont mean a situation where someone had a mixed cab set up and then got rid of one of the cabs and got a twin of the other and said "it sounds better with an identical cab".
I mean someone actually having all three cabs at the same time and doing a true mixed vs twin set up.
Perhaps I missed it.
Edit- and what would be even more convincing is if someone has done this with multiple brands and speaker configurations.
Example:
Ampeg 1x15 + 1x15 vs Ampeg 1x15 + 4x10
Aguilar 2x12 + 2x12 vs Aguilar 2x12+4x10
Epifani 3x10 + 3X10 vs Epifani 3x10+2x12
Etc...
I did this last August with an Eden 210+115 and two Eden 210s.
The difference (in favor of the two 210s) was so obvious that it was almost ridiculous; even my girlfriend noticed a huge difference (and she doesn't care much for these gear shenanigans at all).
esa372 said:
Here's the thread about it.
- Jan 27, 2010
- 4,141
- 471
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Genz Benz Amplification
I've done it with Ampg, SWR, and Genz Benz cabs, in each case the matched rig had far better clarity and was more consistent as I moved around the room.
Yes, here too. Side by side comparisons. Matched cabs ALWAYS sound better/fuller. 2 of *anything* will usually sound better than 1 alone, due to increased volume.
You do actually, it should sound exactly the same, just 3 db louder.
So here's the test. Try each cab separately (to minimize variables, have the cab being tested at the time be the "top"). Then try both cabs together after turning your volume down a notch.
Which of the 3 sounds the best?
There's your answer.
I did this last August with an Eden 210+115 and two Eden 210s.
The difference (in favor of the two 210s) was so obvious that it was almost ridiculous; even my girlfriend noticed a huge difference (and she doesn't care much for these gear shenanigans at all).
Here's the thread about it.
Did you by any chance try 2 1x15s against the 2x10/1x15?
You'll also get some increased response in the lower frequencies as a result of acoustic coupling. You might also get up to 6 dB increased SPL if you get double the power from your amp from lowering the impedance. These will, of course, also apply to the mismatched cabs, although the benefit may be attenuated depending on phase-related losses, etc.
No offense to anyone here! But isn't it funny how in spite of the facts..... 
Willful ignorance is probably the worst thing that can happen to a human mind. When someone believes something regardless of the facts, regardless of the information at hand they lose more than their connection to reality, they lose connection with who they really are.
Willful ignorance is probably the worst thing that can happen to a human mind. When someone believes something regardless of the facts, regardless of the information at hand they lose more than their connection to reality, they lose connection with who they really are.
There's so much misinformation online. I'm not so quick to consider forum posts facts, and I definitely don't believe everything I read.
I'm not saying the theory is not correct, but the anecdotal evidence and a lack of thorough testing leaves some question marks.
"Sounds better" is so subjective. Maybe it's as simple as- people have a tendency towards the sound of certain speaker sizes. More of that size of speaker "sounds better".
I'm not saying the theory is not correct, but the anecdotal evidence and a lack of thorough testing leaves some question marks.
"Sounds better" is so subjective. Maybe it's as simple as- people have a tendency towards the sound of certain speaker sizes. More of that size of speaker "sounds better".
I did not.
I knew that wanted to go with two vertical 210 cabs for the best dispersion (10s have wider dispersion than 15s); plus, I liked the tone of the 210 cab better than the 115. So I was basically just testing my old rig (210+115) against the new one (two 210s).
The contrast was striking.
and now that you have read some, why would you disqualify builders and engineers, who would probably know better than a random player what actually happens acoustically?
It's not that I want to disqualify the pros...but many times the "x"s and "o"s on paper dont translate to what the layman like myself find in practical applications. I'm not a sound engineer or a builder, so when someone writes up a theory with a bunch of technical jargon that I don't understand...It doesn't mean a whole lot. What does resonate are fellow players giving their opinions based on experience in practical applications.
Again...I'm only questioning because I believe everything ought to be questioned until there is little doubt. As a consumer of tons of bass gear I want to be as well informed as possible.
Not so long ago it was common practice to mix cabs in order to get the range of sound frequencies different speaker sizes offered for a more complete sound. Now were being told that mixing is not the best option because of "phasing" issues. I've asked pros that are not a part of TB about this and they say it's hogwash. They refute the theory with more technical jargon that also makes no sense to me. It all gets very confusing. You factor in all the misinformation and it causes one to be skeptical.
Again...I'm only questioning because I believe everything ought to be questioned until there is little doubt. As a consumer of tons of bass gear I want to be as well informed as possible.
Not so long ago it was common practice to mix cabs in order to get the range of sound frequencies different speaker sizes offered for a more complete sound. Now were being told that mixing is not the best option because of "phasing" issues. I've asked pros that are not a part of TB about this and they say it's hogwash. They refute the theory with more technical jargon that also makes no sense to me. It all gets very confusing. You factor in all the misinformation and it causes one to be skeptical.
skepticism is good, especially of internet stuff.
who are the bass experts who are saying mixing cabs is better than matching?
remember, there's no argument that two mis-matched cabs will sound bigger and louder than either one by itself; lots of gigging players do it, and it works fine for them, so they'll say it's a good idea.
the point is just that matching cabs will typically be more efficient and won't have phase weirdness, which creates uneven "holes" in the sound.
you won't find any live sound company worth a damn mixing its sub cabs, and for the same reason.
who are the bass experts who are saying mixing cabs is better than matching?
remember, there's no argument that two mis-matched cabs will sound bigger and louder than either one by itself; lots of gigging players do it, and it works fine for them, so they'll say it's a good idea.
the point is just that matching cabs will typically be more efficient and won't have phase weirdness, which creates uneven "holes" in the sound.
you won't find any live sound company worth a damn mixing its sub cabs, and for the same reason.
You have to prove it to yourself. I have posted before that I conclusively proved that to identical cabs sound dramatically better then a mixed setup by having a range of cabs at my disposal and doing some a/b comparing side by side, with the same amp and bass. I compared an Eden 210 and 115 to a pair of Eden 210 cabs. The 210 stack just blew away the mixed cab setup. It had more low end, clarity punch and smoothness. I later compared a Mesa Powerhouse 210 and 115 to a pair of Powerhouse 115 cabs and was amazed at how much better the 2 115 stack sounded.
I don't pretend to fully understand the science behind the results but don't hide from it either and pretend that because I am a musician, the science doesn't matter. That's just burying your head in the sand. Use your ears of course, but have some faith that there are people on this forum that have "been there and done that" long before and know what they are talking about. Its all about sharing information!
I don't pretend to fully understand the science behind the results but don't hide from it either and pretend that because I am a musician, the science doesn't matter. That's just burying your head in the sand. Use your ears of course, but have some faith that there are people on this forum that have "been there and done that" long before and know what they are talking about. Its all about sharing information!
Who's being "willfully ignorant"? Certainly not me. I advocate trying out a bunch of different options to find out which one works best FOR YOU. Rather than the matching cabs mafia who just say "nooo, don't ever try mixing, you could dieeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" leading less adventurous souls to leave a lot of potential options unexplored, any number of which might be what would be "right" for them.
Uhm, a lot of the greatest bass players of all time?
Again, sometimes those "holes" can be beneficial to the sound, and likewise there may be peaks as well.
That's a completely different function, everything is crossed over, and it wouldn't make much sense to have 15s and 18s in the same general range, because it would add unnecessary complexity to the PA (extra crossover band, different types of subs to buy, setup, and maintain, etc..).
As far as crabby, so you basically tried 2 different sets of cabs and TO YOU you preferred matching. No problem. Someone else might try the same sets of cabs and find the reverse.
To really have "empirical evidence", you'd have to do an extensive study with lots of bass players (at least 100, but 20 might at least give an indication) each playing on LOTS of different combinations of cabs (and probably even with at least a few different heads).
Just to be clear, I'm not AGAINST matching cabs. I wouldn't mind having another one of my vintage Carvin 1x15 cabs, for isntance. That thing sounds really good (with the JBL M151 currently in it). Not huge low end, but it's got a nice warm "wide range" vintagey (mid/late 70s) sound to it. Works well with my Kramer aluminum neck bass.
Uhm, a lot of the greatest bass players of all time?
Again, sometimes those "holes" can be beneficial to the sound, and likewise there may be peaks as well.
That's a completely different function, everything is crossed over, and it wouldn't make much sense to have 15s and 18s in the same general range, because it would add unnecessary complexity to the PA (extra crossover band, different types of subs to buy, setup, and maintain, etc..).
As far as crabby, so you basically tried 2 different sets of cabs and TO YOU you preferred matching. No problem. Someone else might try the same sets of cabs and find the reverse.
To really have "empirical evidence", you'd have to do an extensive study with lots of bass players (at least 100, but 20 might at least give an indication) each playing on LOTS of different combinations of cabs (and probably even with at least a few different heads).
Just to be clear, I'm not AGAINST matching cabs. I wouldn't mind having another one of my vintage Carvin 1x15 cabs, for isntance. That thing sounds really good (with the JBL M151 currently in it). Not huge low end, but it's got a nice warm "wide range" vintagey (mid/late 70s) sound to it. Works well with my Kramer aluminum neck bass.
