Passive Music Man Basses Update

[drTSTingray]

Eh, in the passive precision or jazz bass market, if I'm going to spend 2k I'm going to get EXACTLY what I want.

Aherm - I don't think you'll be getting exactly what you want from Fender as a CS Bass will be significantly more (I still think there are some around who think Fender is the yardstick for 'Precision and Jazz' type basses - to me everything else is a copy of one level or another - some better some not - the likes of some like Lull and Sadowsky creating a name of their own in the process)

Kit-built instruments sure have a market but rather like kit cars, have a certain clientele and cache about them - the kit-built copy is preferred by some whilst many others prefer the actual thing even though it's expensive in comparison.

 

[SirMjac28]

I wish they could have moved production overseas like others have said that price point was tough.

 

[drTSTingray]

FAIL!

I think he may possibly have been drinking.....

 

[TheLowDown33]

Aherm - I don't think you'll be getting exactly what you want from Fender as a CS Bass will be significantly more (I still think there are some around who think Fender is the yardstick for 'Precision and Jazz' type basses - to me everything else is a copy of one level or another - some better some not - the likes of some like Lull and Sadowsky creating a name of their own in the process)

Kit-built instruments sure have a market but rather like kit cars, have a certain clientele and cache about them - the kit-built copy is preferred by some whilst many others prefer the actual thing even though it's expensive in comparison.

Agreed. it's a little bit niche, but the chances are if you have that kind of cash to drop on an instrument you have shopped around and know that there is a very saturated market. Also I specifically left out CS fenders because I do not think they are a good value at all. Unless it has to say Fender on the headstock there's just so many alternatives that do a similar thing for a much better value.

 

[Wood and Wire]

I feared they might be for the chop, but figured they'd be given a good 4 or 5 year run, just to be given a chance of gaining traction.

That's pretty ruthless, if products have 18 months to become a smash hit, or they are culled.

The way the P, and J market is so oversaturated, I would have expected that the only realistic way a new offering would make it, is to build a grass roots following, and slowly grow, to becoming a steady and reliable seller.

It seems like the expectation is for a blockbusting "opening weekend", and only then will it be allowed trail off for decades of steady sales, before being reinvigorated by updates.


Other than the cache of the name "Stingray", and the oval scratch plate ; I've never really understood why the Sabre has never really connected with bassists - and subsequently been discontinued a couple of times - yet the HH Stingray is flying off the shelves.

To my eye, the Sabre looks like a well conceived design, whereas the HH Stingray looks like a compromised design. Furthermore, the HH Stingray incorporates a design flaw, that the reissued Sabre corrected - which to me, seems very strange indeed.

I hope this doesn't mean that the ultimate fate of the Cutlass, and Caprice, is to end up as different pick-up options, in an all passive Stingray.

 

[knight of ni]

I wish they could have moved production over seaslike others have said that price point was tough.

Didn't they with Sterling By MusicMan ?

 

[knight of ni]

Other than the cache of the name "Stingray", and the oval scratch plate ; I've never really understood why the Sabre has never really connected with bassists

Because it's not a Stingray and people want Rays as much as they want P and J Fenders. I suppose that the Sabre came just late (either in the 70's or in MusicMan history) to really take off. One Louis Johnson wasn't enough I suppose.

 

[Briton]

I think he may possibly have been drinking.....

Sorry Fanboy but I don't drink.FAIL again!

 

[SirMjac28]

Didn't they with Sterling By MusicMan ?

I had a Ray35 and that was m

 

[SirMjac28]

Didn't they with Sterling By MusicMan ?

I had a Ray35 that was made in Indonesia and I think the Cutlass, and Caprice could've been made there and sold at a competitive price point.

 

[Jeff Scott]

So you do admit it is a FAIL even if it is a small one in your opinion. Oh and please don't make un educated excuses like blaming the Stingray Special for the demise of the Cutlass and Caprice. EB fanboys will like anything that EB brings out even if it has pink spots on it. The reality is the general buying public were not excited enough to buy either of them, and EB enthusiasts alone are not a big enough number to keep EB solvent. Oh and I aint talking about Sales I am talking about Design and Marketing

Okay, so these are your, er, educated facts? Where'd you git them?

 

[Briton]

Okay, so these are your, er, educated facts? Where'd you git them?

Well this really isn't Rocket Science, obviously the majority of punters where not excited about them and that is why they did not sell. And as for the word FAIL to describe EB's attempt to get these models to sell, my description is bang on regardless of what the EB fanboys say.If you produce something in business and it sells well to make you a profit it is considered as being a SUCCESS. Alternatively if it doesn't sell it is considered as being a FAILURE. I think that the fanboys from EB have been spending too much time over at The Morgue or in other words the EB Forum as they obviously cannot think for themselves. Being lonely over there must do strange things to one's mind............Amen!

 

[two fingers]

Well this really isn't Rocket Science, obviously the majority of punters where not excited about them and that is why they did not sell. And as for the word FAIL to describe EB's attempt to get these models to sell, my description is bang on regardless of what the EB fanboys say.If you produce something in business and it sells well to make you a profit it is considered as being a SUCCESS. Alternatively if it doesn't sell it is considered as being a FAILURE. I think that the fanboys from EB have been spending too much time over at The Morgue or in other words the EB Forum as they obviously cannot think for themselves. Being lonely over there must do strange things to one's mind............Amen!

I have never owned an EB bass of any kind. I am not a fanboy of any brand.

Your description as a "fail" has been called out because the meaning of the word has sort of "evolved" over time.

Memes populate the interwebz showing a skateboarder cracking his nuts on a handrail simply saying "Fail" or "Epic fail".

It has been twisted into "You failed because you're an idiot".

EB made a fantastic product. The market didn't respond. Several times throughout history, the market has not responded to fantastic innovations. That doesn't mean the manufacturer failed. It simply means we didn't buy into it. You can't force people to like things. So an inability to force a new product into the market isn't a failure.

Also, you seem kind of tense. You made what seemed to be an "ugly remark" and you got called out on it. That's what we do here, like it or not.

So, what's your beef with EB? It almost seems personal... like you have some sort of ax to grind with them. Somebody on an EB forum offended you, I suppose.


Oh, well. T'is life.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Well this really isn't Rocket Science, obviously the majority of punters where not excited about them and that is why they did not sell. And as for the word FAIL to describe EB's attempt to get these models to sell, my description is bang on regardless of what the EB fanboys say.If you produce something in business and it sells well to make you a profit it is considered as being a SUCCESS. Alternatively if it doesn't sell it is considered as being a FAILURE. I think that the fanboys from EB have been spending too much time over at The Morgue or in other words the EB Forum as they obviously cannot think for themselves. Being lonely over there must do strange things to one's mind............Amen!

Where are your facts to support your position on this? Did you get these facts from one of the Balls? Or, are these, in reality, these are your opinions and suppositions?

 

[Inara]

I've hesitated to weigh in on the whole "failure" claim. I guess if one evaluates success or failure through the lens of capitalism only, one can say that these basses did not succeed, as that sort of success can only be determined through analysis of profits and losses. And yes, EBMM is a commercial company existing in a capitalist market, so that can be one valid way of looking at it.

I prefer to look past that to the instruments themselves and their (non-monetary) value to me as an artist. In this sense, these basses are by no means a failure. My Caprice is an amazing bass that surpasses any other fretted bass I've played or owned.

People complain about the large headstock ... EBMM stated that this was to increase sustain. I don't know if that's true, but the bass does sustain better than anything I've played other than my Pedulla Buzz neck-through, which it's about equal with.

People try to say the Caprice is "just another PJ," but the experience I and other owners have had is that the bridge pickup on these basses is very different and balances with the P pickup better than any other basses we've ever tried. Some of us have never had a bridge J pickup that we would use soloed, even on Jazz basses, and we find ourselves using the Caprice bridge pickup soloed. It's that good.

So, sure, maybe these were a commercial failure. I don't care. I'm glad I own one. Van Gogh's paintings were also commercial failures, such that he only sold one in his lifetime. But they are amazing works of art. My Caprice isn't going to hang in the Louvre or sell for millions, I know. I'm not trying to do that sort of direct comparison. But to me, this bass is about as far from a failure as it can get.

 

[Briton]

I have never owned an EB bass of any kind. I am not a fanboy of any brand.

Your description as a "fail" has been called out because the meaning of the word has sort of "evolved" over time.

Memes populate the interwebz showing a skateboarder cracking his nuts on a handrail simply saying "Fail" or "Epic fail".

It has been twisted into "You failed because you're an idiot".

EB made a fantastic product. The market didn't respond. Several times throughout history, the market has not responded to fantastic innovations. That doesn't mean the manufacturer failed. It simply means we didn't buy into it. You can't force people to like things. So an inability to force a new product into the market isn't a failure.

Also, you seem kind of tense. You made what seemed to be an "ugly remark" and you got called out on it. That's what we do here, like it or not.

So, what's your beef with EB? It almost seems personal... like you have some sort of ax to grind with them. Somebody on an EB forum offended you, I suppose.


Oh, well. T'is life.

Well I wasn't referring to you when I said Fanboy though there are many here on this thread who are, and TBer's in general know who they are. I personally have no beef with EB and I actually own a Stingray Classic and a Bongo 5 which are fantastic Basses.
I am also a member of the EB Forum and have never been offended by anyone on there, but I don't visit it often due to the fact which I previously mentioned that it is a Morgue.
I really cannot understand what all of the fuss is about, but I stick by my original statement when I said that the Cutlass and the Caprice were both failures for EB.If they were not failures they would have not been discontinued and would still be on the shelves.
Obviously for someone who has actually bought one of them, they would not consider them as being failures but in the bigger picture they obviously are.

 

[Briton]

I've hesitated to weigh in on the whole "failure" claim. I guess if one evaluates success or failure through the lens of capitalism only, one can say that these basses did not succeed, as that sort of success can only be determined through analysis of profits and losses. And yes, EBMM is a commercial company existing in a capitalist market, so that can be one valid way of looking at it.

I prefer to look past that to the instruments themselves and their (non-monetary) value to me as an artist. In this sense, these basses are by no means a failure. My Caprice is an amazing bass that surpasses any other fretted bass I've played or owned.

People complain about the large headstock ... EBMM stated that this was to increase sustain. I don't know if that's true, but the bass does sustain better than anything I've played other than my Pedulla Buzz neck-through, which it's about equal with.

People try to say the Caprice is "just another PJ," but the experience I and other owners have had is that the bridge pickup on these basses is very different and balances with the P pickup better than any other basses we've ever tried. Some of us have never had a bridge J pickup that we would use soloed, even on Jazz basses, and we find ourselves using the Caprice bridge pickup soloed. It's that good.

So, sure, maybe these were a commercial failure. I don't care. I'm glad I own one. Van Gogh's paintings were also commercial failures, such that he only sold one in his lifetime. But they are amazing works of art. My Caprice isn't going to hang in the Louvre or sell for millions, I know. I'm not trying to do that sort of direct comparison. But to me, this bass is about as far from a failure as it can get.

I have never once said that the Basses themselves are failures, I am saying that in regards to EB PLC they have been a failure. Jeez this is hard work!

 

[drTSTingray]

Sorry Fanboy but I don't drink.FAIL again!

Well I'm very pleased to hear it - for a moment I thought you might drown in vitriol. However you have failed completely in the assertion that I'm a fanboy - I've never had any interest in American superhero comics, am well over 60 yrs old (so not a boy) - I suppose fan is accurate but I'd prefer to use the word enthusiast as fan is generally associated with some types of sports rather than other hobbies - I'm an enthusiast for bass guitars generally, but also Musicman basses (whether made by CLF, Charvel or Ernie Ball). So there you have it - you can stand corrected

 

[two fingers]

Well I wasn't referring to you when I said Fanboy though there are many here on this thread who are, and TBer's in general know who they are. I personally have no beef with EB and I actually own a Stingray Classic and a Bongo 5 which are fantastic Basses.
I am also a member of the EB Forum and have never been offended by anyone on there, but I don't visit it often due to the fact which I previously mentioned that it is a Morgue.
I really cannot understand what all of the fuss is about, but I stick by my original statement when I said that the Cutlass and the Caprice were both failures for EB.If they were not failures they would have not been discontinued and would still be on the shelves.
Obviously for someone who has actually bought one of them, they would not consider them as being failures but in the bigger picture they obviously are.

I can live with that. Again, the word "fail" has taken on a new meaning over the past decade or so. It doesn't just mean "did not succeed" anymore. It kind of means "It didn't work because you suck and you're stupid". That's why you encountered a wall of push back.

I was more seeking clarification and did not mean to pile on. You're allowed to have your opinions. I know I do.

 

[Briton]

Well I'm very pleased to hear it - for a moment I thought you might drown in vitriol. However you have failed completely in the assertion that I'm a fanboy - I've never had any interest in American superhero comics, am well over 60 yrs old (so not a boy) - I suppose fan is accurate but I'd prefer to use the word enthusiast as fan is generally associated with some types of sports rather than other hobbies - I'm an enthusiast for bass guitars generally, but also Musicman basses (whether made by CLF, Charvel or Ernie Ball). So there you have it - you can stand corrected

Mmm.....I beg to differ, this is a bit of a long shot but I would say that over 80% of your posts on TB are probably EB related. To me that would mean Fanboy territory!