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Pedal Preamp / DI with sweepable mids - options?
- Thread starter Bassed in NZ
- Start date
I'm in the same boat. Been staring at the Avalon U5 for like 2 months and have finally decided that I'd prefer a stomp-box/portable tone shaper/line booster/DI.
I am a 'download the manual and study the features before buying' junkie so I added some numbers below, straight from the respective manuals of those pedals I too have/have-had interest in:
EBS Micro Bass II - Liked it a lot for what it is, but it didn't have the tone shaping I was hoping for, believe it or not. And I just didn't get on with the overdrive. Too much $$ for what I wasn't getting out of it. Returned, sadly.
Bass +/- 15db @ 100Hz
Treble +/- 15db @ 10kHz shelving
Mid +/- 12db, range from 50Hz-2kHz
Sans Amp Para Driver DI - For the price, it does have some nice available tones, but after tweaking with it (my lady friend uses it with her guitar so I continue to play around with it), I have found one favorite tone, but one I would only use for certain occasions. Otherwise it colors my tone too much, though I do kinda like its overdrive. Still, not exactly what I seem to want.
Bass +/- 12db @ 80Hz
Treble +/- 12db @ 3.2kHz
Mid +/- 16db, range from 170Hz-3.5kHz
Aguilar Tone Hammer - Have yet to try it, but it is next on my list. As soon as I get paid next month, I'm ordering one for a trial. I have high hopes based on advice, reviews and experience with the above.
Bass +/- 18db @ 40Hz
Treble +/- 18db @ 4kHz
Mid +/- 17db, range from 180Hz-1kHz
Based on numbers alone (heh):
The Microbass offers the greatest High shelf, the lowest start in Mid sweep (with a 1950Hz range), but also the weakest mid boost/cut.
The Para Driver offers the greatest mid range sweep (3300Hz), with a mid range that goes higher than its Treble Q!
The Tone Hammer offers the most boost/cut for all frequencies and the lowest Bass Q, but also seems to offer the narrowest Mid sweep (820Hz), though still well within traditional mid-range.
So in conclusion:
I found the Microbass sounded best (with my bass) with all settings flat, drive set to 0. See why I returned it?
I found the Para Driver sounded best (with my bass) with treble/bass flat, mid boost to 2 o'clock w/Q set to @800Hz. Sansamp blend to 0. Twangy and sweet, but not my usual tone choice.
So, it seems like the Tonehammer's rather limited (in comparison) mid-range sweep may not be an issue for me if I can dial in a similar mid tone, yet boost the lows more. Hopefully, the low-mids will sound better too.
These devices should all have different voices (tonal coloration), so the numbers themselves can only be indirectly compared I think.
Heh, heh.... Only more testing will tell.
I am a 'download the manual and study the features before buying' junkie so I added some numbers below, straight from the respective manuals of those pedals I too have/have-had interest in:
EBS Micro Bass II - Liked it a lot for what it is, but it didn't have the tone shaping I was hoping for, believe it or not. And I just didn't get on with the overdrive. Too much $$ for what I wasn't getting out of it. Returned, sadly.
Bass +/- 15db @ 100Hz
Treble +/- 15db @ 10kHz shelving
Mid +/- 12db, range from 50Hz-2kHz
Sans Amp Para Driver DI - For the price, it does have some nice available tones, but after tweaking with it (my lady friend uses it with her guitar so I continue to play around with it), I have found one favorite tone, but one I would only use for certain occasions. Otherwise it colors my tone too much, though I do kinda like its overdrive. Still, not exactly what I seem to want.
Bass +/- 12db @ 80Hz
Treble +/- 12db @ 3.2kHz
Mid +/- 16db, range from 170Hz-3.5kHz
Aguilar Tone Hammer - Have yet to try it, but it is next on my list. As soon as I get paid next month, I'm ordering one for a trial. I have high hopes based on advice, reviews and experience with the above.
Bass +/- 18db @ 40Hz
Treble +/- 18db @ 4kHz
Mid +/- 17db, range from 180Hz-1kHz
Based on numbers alone (heh):
The Microbass offers the greatest High shelf, the lowest start in Mid sweep (with a 1950Hz range), but also the weakest mid boost/cut.
The Para Driver offers the greatest mid range sweep (3300Hz), with a mid range that goes higher than its Treble Q!
The Tone Hammer offers the most boost/cut for all frequencies and the lowest Bass Q, but also seems to offer the narrowest Mid sweep (820Hz), though still well within traditional mid-range.
So in conclusion:
I found the Microbass sounded best (with my bass) with all settings flat, drive set to 0. See why I returned it?
I found the Para Driver sounded best (with my bass) with treble/bass flat, mid boost to 2 o'clock w/Q set to @800Hz. Sansamp blend to 0. Twangy and sweet, but not my usual tone choice.
So, it seems like the Tonehammer's rather limited (in comparison) mid-range sweep may not be an issue for me if I can dial in a similar mid tone, yet boost the lows more. Hopefully, the low-mids will sound better too.
These devices should all have different voices (tonal coloration), so the numbers themselves can only be indirectly compared I think.
Heh, heh.... Only more testing will tell.
All right - closing the loop on my investigations here...
I'll give a quick run down of what I've found about each of the units in my original post, plus those key pedals that have come up in the subsequent posts...
Aguilar Tone Hammer: After much deliberation and discussion with various builders (see below), I pulled the trigger on this one. Simple, plenty of output, good EQ, liked the online clips that I heard, it has a lot of love on TB, and I could get it reasonably local for a good price (thanks Evan at Basspeople in Sydney).
Downside is no independent volume control for the balanced out (which I can live with - I'll pick up an attenuator in case I'm playing somewhere with an old desk that doesn't have an input pad), and needed 18v - simple case of adding another adaptor on a power strip under the board.
So it's now on the board, and I'm liking what I'm hearing so far - plenty of output for the Bergantino (man it's loud now, didn't know what I was missing!), musical EQ, seems a little more "open" to my ears than the EBS. Haven't got on with the AGS yet - a bit more fiddling required as it changes the mid character somewhat, and as Vlad notes above, it's a different freq range from what I'm used to with the Microbass. I suspect I'll run most of the time with a little bit of AGS once I figure it out, but clean it's sounding really nice to me...
John East STMP-01: This was suggested in this thread, so I got in contact with John to find out more. Had some great email conversations with John East – extremely helpful guy, gave me a lot of suggestions, chewed around options with me, and genuinely seemed to care about me getting the right outcome, as opposed to selling me his kit particularly.
What I found out is that the output level is dependent on the input level – there is 6dB of gain max between input and ¼” output, and 12dB max between input and XLR output. I couldn’t guarantee that I had enough input level to make this work with my rig. [Note the input/output dependency holds true for the Tone Hammer as well, but it's got 32dB of gain available]
Basswitch: Looks like a great piece of kit, but I realised I wouldn’t use half the features, and couldn’t justify the price (or perhaps the real estate on my board) if I wasn't going to use it fully. Had numerous emails back and forth with Jacques and he was great to deal with - very helpful and informative.
DHA-EQ-DI: Dave Hall confirmed output levels would happily drive the Bergantino (which is what Scotch has also confirmed herein). Again, I had some good emails back and forth with Dave - very helpful. This would’ve came a close second to the Tone Hammer, and if I’m not happy with the TH I’ll try this next. Not quite so convinced on the layout of i/o and knobs.
DHA-Twin-EQ-DI: As with the Basswitch, realised that I didn’t need all the functionality here (headphone outs, inputs etc), so a bit of overkill (though the price is very sharp for the features that it has).
BBE Acoustimax: Found mixed reviews on the web re this unit in relation to the use on acoustic guitar - some people rave about it, some think it's rubbish and does nothing to their sound. Couldn't find any reviews for it being used for bass, so I didn't progress any further.
LR Baggs Venue DI: Couldn’t find a single review where this was used as a bass preamp – feature set looks good and the output is perhaps just about enough, but went no further.
Viva Analog 360 Lite: Not an obvious contender at first look as it doesn't have a DI, but a few PM's found that it could be added. The mid frequency I believe has 5 settings - so flexible, but not "sweepable" per se. A little more than I was wanting to pay though.
DHA-VT1-EQ-Bass: Some opinions that I got suggested this would be too coloured for my liking.
Phew - a good process to go through. A big shout out of thanks to everyone who contributed via the forum, PM's and email - really appreciate being able to use the network to get an idea of what will work and what won't before committing the cash.
Right - enough writing - more playing!
I'll give a quick run down of what I've found about each of the units in my original post, plus those key pedals that have come up in the subsequent posts...
Aguilar Tone Hammer: After much deliberation and discussion with various builders (see below), I pulled the trigger on this one. Simple, plenty of output, good EQ, liked the online clips that I heard, it has a lot of love on TB, and I could get it reasonably local for a good price (thanks Evan at Basspeople in Sydney).
Downside is no independent volume control for the balanced out (which I can live with - I'll pick up an attenuator in case I'm playing somewhere with an old desk that doesn't have an input pad), and needed 18v - simple case of adding another adaptor on a power strip under the board.
So it's now on the board, and I'm liking what I'm hearing so far - plenty of output for the Bergantino (man it's loud now, didn't know what I was missing!), musical EQ, seems a little more "open" to my ears than the EBS. Haven't got on with the AGS yet - a bit more fiddling required as it changes the mid character somewhat, and as Vlad notes above, it's a different freq range from what I'm used to with the Microbass. I suspect I'll run most of the time with a little bit of AGS once I figure it out, but clean it's sounding really nice to me...
John East STMP-01: This was suggested in this thread, so I got in contact with John to find out more. Had some great email conversations with John East – extremely helpful guy, gave me a lot of suggestions, chewed around options with me, and genuinely seemed to care about me getting the right outcome, as opposed to selling me his kit particularly.
What I found out is that the output level is dependent on the input level – there is 6dB of gain max between input and ¼” output, and 12dB max between input and XLR output. I couldn’t guarantee that I had enough input level to make this work with my rig. [Note the input/output dependency holds true for the Tone Hammer as well, but it's got 32dB of gain available]
Basswitch: Looks like a great piece of kit, but I realised I wouldn’t use half the features, and couldn’t justify the price (or perhaps the real estate on my board) if I wasn't going to use it fully. Had numerous emails back and forth with Jacques and he was great to deal with - very helpful and informative.
DHA-EQ-DI: Dave Hall confirmed output levels would happily drive the Bergantino (which is what Scotch has also confirmed herein). Again, I had some good emails back and forth with Dave - very helpful. This would’ve came a close second to the Tone Hammer, and if I’m not happy with the TH I’ll try this next. Not quite so convinced on the layout of i/o and knobs.
DHA-Twin-EQ-DI: As with the Basswitch, realised that I didn’t need all the functionality here (headphone outs, inputs etc), so a bit of overkill (though the price is very sharp for the features that it has).
BBE Acoustimax: Found mixed reviews on the web re this unit in relation to the use on acoustic guitar - some people rave about it, some think it's rubbish and does nothing to their sound. Couldn't find any reviews for it being used for bass, so I didn't progress any further.
LR Baggs Venue DI: Couldn’t find a single review where this was used as a bass preamp – feature set looks good and the output is perhaps just about enough, but went no further.
Viva Analog 360 Lite: Not an obvious contender at first look as it doesn't have a DI, but a few PM's found that it could be added. The mid frequency I believe has 5 settings - so flexible, but not "sweepable" per se. A little more than I was wanting to pay though.
DHA-VT1-EQ-Bass: Some opinions that I got suggested this would be too coloured for my liking.
Phew - a good process to go through. A big shout out of thanks to everyone who contributed via the forum, PM's and email - really appreciate being able to use the network to get an idea of what will work and what won't before committing the cash.
Right - enough writing - more playing!
Great info in here - let us know how you go!I'm in the same boat. Been staring at the Avalon U5 for like 2 months and have finally decided that I'd prefer a stomp-box/portable tone shaper/line booster/DI.
...[snip]...
Heh, heh.... Only more testing will tell.
Some Tone Hammer thoughts...
I have been using one with my IP112 (non-ER) with my church group for a while now.
The pedal will run on Phantom power from the DI. This is standard setup for me so I don't need a power supply or batteries.
With an active bass I will run with the pedal switched out and find that the signal is pretty hot and nicely crisp. I have to run the gain and master pretty high to match this signal and the sound of the DI without the preamp is very good.
The bass control is set at 40 Hz so you can use it to tame the big low end of the IP. I am tempted to run a limiter or another high pass filter to clean it up a bit more. However...
The AGS circuit will tighten up the low end even at fairly low gain settings. With my Pbass I generally run the gain about 10:00 and roll off a little high mid and treble on the pedal to control how much growl/distortion comes through. These settings will roll off some of the lowest freq's and color it up a little.
I am curious how it works for you.
I have been using one with my IP112 (non-ER) with my church group for a while now.
The pedal will run on Phantom power from the DI. This is standard setup for me so I don't need a power supply or batteries.
With an active bass I will run with the pedal switched out and find that the signal is pretty hot and nicely crisp. I have to run the gain and master pretty high to match this signal and the sound of the DI without the preamp is very good.
The bass control is set at 40 Hz so you can use it to tame the big low end of the IP. I am tempted to run a limiter or another high pass filter to clean it up a bit more. However...
The AGS circuit will tighten up the low end even at fairly low gain settings. With my Pbass I generally run the gain about 10:00 and roll off a little high mid and treble on the pedal to control how much growl/distortion comes through. These settings will roll off some of the lowest freq's and color it up a little.
I am curious how it works for you.
I tried out the Tone Hammer and have to say it is really nice. Better control than the MXR Bass DI+ (no mid sweep), and easier to dial in a usable tone than the EBS Microbass II (though I have to say both the MXR and EBS are quality units, different apples). The Hammer is similar in control to the Tech 21 Para Driver DI. But of course, without the SansAmp circuitry.
Over all the above, I'd say the Tone Hammer is my favorite for bass. Simple and very low noise. The AGS circuit is controllable with both the mid-freq boost/cut and the gain knob. Much nicer over-driven tone than the MXR and EBS I think (at least with my bass).
I am sending the Tone Hammer back though because I've come to realize I don't need a stomp-box eq, my bass sounds best without one. I was looking for something to shape my tone before the amp, but found the Mesa M9 valve preamp to be simply amazing. If only they'd put in a peddle...
I am going to keep looking for a overdrive or booster though... maybe I should just save up for a REDDI or Avalon U5 or something (sigh).
Over all the above, I'd say the Tone Hammer is my favorite for bass. Simple and very low noise. The AGS circuit is controllable with both the mid-freq boost/cut and the gain knob. Much nicer over-driven tone than the MXR and EBS I think (at least with my bass).
I am sending the Tone Hammer back though because I've come to realize I don't need a stomp-box eq, my bass sounds best without one. I was looking for something to shape my tone before the amp, but found the Mesa M9 valve preamp to be simply amazing. If only they'd put in a peddle...
I am going to keep looking for a overdrive or booster though... maybe I should just save up for a REDDI or Avalon U5 or something (sigh).
Since it was mentioned, I have a Baggs Venue. I'd been checking it out for long time and was able to find a great price-matching deal. I use it with a Rob Allen fretless and it's very nice. It's very easy to overload the front-end so you have to keep an eye on the gain, particularly with any pedals (either through the input or the effects loop) that boost the signal because you will distort. I think it's good if you already have the real low end already covered and don't need to add anything. It is very flexible with the two sweepable bands of mids and can get very loud without noise. The tuner does work with bass although it is sometimes a little slow after finding the note and you want to move on to the next string (not really an issue). The mute is nice to have and the boost comes in handy when you want to take a solo. Built like a tank.
It sounds like you had the blend up, To use our Para DI for EQ only you would set the blend counterclockwise as this shuts of the SansAmp circuitry (amp and speaker emulation). The "tone" shouldn't be that different if the EQ points are set to similar ranges.500k is 500k. The main difference with a parametric and semi-parametric if we are talking the same sweepable band will be the Q or width of the sweepable bands. This determines the range of frequencies affected. Because there will always be a phase shift when adjusting EQ a wider "Q" will tend to be more musical which is why we use it.
For sure I am more impressed with the Para Driver's mid-eq width than any of the others. And the nice tone I found on it was with the SansAmp circuitry dialed out completely. That's not to say I didn't like it, just doesn't work for me and my bass. The Aguilar gave me roughly the same tone I got with the PDDI, since the mid setting ended up being the same. The second button (AGS) on the Tone Hammer is what turned me on to it in the first place.
In fact, since I have your attention, a SansAmp-engage/disengage footswitch tied to the drive section would be super cool on a PDDI, just saying.
However, I am really happy with what a 50% SansAmp blend and slight mid-tone roll off at about 1kHz does to my guitarist's single EMG 81 pickup.
The PDDI is the only pre-amp peddle I tried that I've kept, even if its used by the guitarist. I'm beginning to think my Thumb bass just doesn't like peddle eqs, as it always sounds better (to me of course) without one...
For sure I am more impressed with the Para Driver's mid-eq width than any of the others. And the nice tone I found on it was with the SansAmp circuitry dialed out completely. That's not to say I didn't like it, just doesn't work for me and my bass. The Aguilar gave me roughly the same tone I got with the PDDI, since the mid setting ended up being the same. The second button (AGS) on the Tone Hammer is what turned me on to it in the first place.
In fact, since I have your attention, a SansAmp-engage/disengage footswitch tied to the drive section would be super cool on a PDDI, just saying.
It would be difficult to have the SansAmp circuitry on a footwsitch on the Para DI. You would need an extra level control and footswitch. There are only so many features you can put inside a small pedal.
The PDDI is the only pre-amp peddle I tried that I've kept, even if its used by the guitarist. I'm beginning to think my Thumb bass just doesn't like peddle eqs, as it always sounds better (to me of course) without one...
If I'm not mistaken the bass you are using has active circuitry which means you already have the equivalent of a pedal EQ inside your bass. When you run the active EQ of your bass into the active EQ of our Para DI and then into the EQ section of your amp you now have stacked three EQ circuits.With each EQ there will be a phase shift and all those EQ's run in series will just fight with one another.
It doesn't sound like you should need an EQ pedal with your rig. You might be best running the EQ on your bass flat and adjusting your amp first and then try using your active bass eq. You could use the Para DI as just a distortion box.
Just throwing this out there since it seems to offer many of the features the OP is asking for.
The Joe Meek gbQ
Sweepable lo, mid and high EQ. DI. FX loop. And distortion if you are into that sort of thing. Looks like a neat enough pedal, but the price is up there.
The Joe Meek gbQ
Sweepable lo, mid and high EQ. DI. FX loop. And distortion if you are into that sort of thing. Looks like a neat enough pedal, but the price is up there.
Finally got back to this.
Tech21, you're right. It took 4 peddle board eq/di's for me to figure that out.
All along, I have been setting the eq on my bass flat, but I thought I wanted a further tone control on my board to switch between one tone to another. On all these eq's, I found I left bass/treble alone, and adjusted the mid/sweep only. Seems all I really want is to switch between a low-mid (@200Hz) boost to a high-mid (@1KHz) boost on the fly. A full eq is more than I need since (as you mentioned) I already have a 2 band active eq on my bass.So I just got an EWS BMC and am trying it out... So far, it seems to be what I've been looking for. A subtle or not so subtle mid-sweepable (120Hz-3KHz, a broader range than my 2 band on board eq) boost/cut with internal gain adjustment. I can set a boost/cut, then switch it on and off on the fly, without thinking I'm wasting six other knobs on a otherwise fine pedal (like all the ones mentioned above). Its like having the Para Drive's mid-tone section only in a single pedal. Since that's all I was using the PDDI for anyway, I left it on my guitar board (works great there since my guitar has no on board eq, just volume).
Thought I'd mention this to the OP as an another option.
Cheers!
Hello all,
Interesting post.
I also felt 33 Hz pretty low to go when we designed the BW, but that is where the Low B is sitting. Making it peaking resolved to my opinion the problem: If the amp and the environment can take it you have it, else it allows you at least to cut where the signal is. The field tests have proven the design to be quiet efficient but I appreciate this remark, it addresses a real problem especially if the design is shelving in the area.
Regards
Jacques
Interesting post.
I also felt 33 Hz pretty low to go when we designed the BW, but that is where the Low B is sitting. Making it peaking resolved to my opinion the problem: If the amp and the environment can take it you have it, else it allows you at least to cut where the signal is. The field tests have proven the design to be quiet efficient but I appreciate this remark, it addresses a real problem especially if the design is shelving in the area.
Regards
Jacques
For those who are interested:
The Basswitch IQ DI has landed in the US and is now available at Dan Lenard's Luthiers Access Group.
Regards
Jacques
The Basswitch IQ DI has landed in the US and is now available at Dan Lenard's Luthiers Access Group.
Regards
Jacques
Zombie thread bump.
I've been looking into preamp style pedals lately and this is a very useful thread.
I've been looking into preamp style pedals lately and this is a very useful thread.
