Pedal switcher for the ambient bassist

[sunbeast]

I have one of these Morley Split-Mix units, that acts essentially like a dual-channel buffer/booster/mute when you run both 2 inputs and 2 outputs (A input goes to Output 1, B to Output 2): Morley Twin Mix Dual Channel Mixer/Combiner Pedal
Not a perfect solution for you because its not a one-footswitch solution, but you could definitely hit both switches simultaneously. Use something else to split your signal (like the Boss), then put something like this at the end of your FX chains and before the DIs and it could work. Bonus is you get a volume control for each channel right before it hits the board.

I see its also been discontinued like the Empress solution I posted previously (not sure why all these cool utility pedals don't get the love!), but I noticed a used one popped up in my search at Guitar Center for $40.

 

[monsterthompson]

Some Zoia ambient stuff I've done.
Ghostlylocks

GrainVerb - Zoia Patch

 

[Jeremy Darrow]

Hey thanks! I'm trying to be easy to work with kind of always.

It isn't entirely true that he brought up it to me, tho. He asked if I could run two lines to the board, one for the pad sounds and one for all the rest. The main reasoning was that for my more typical bass sounds he builds an eq profile that doesn't work as well for more treble-heavy pad and synth textures. We haven't started running my sound like that, tho, because my drummer just added a roland spd to his setup and we just started using in ears instead of wedges and we didn't want to change too much all at once. I just realized that this would be a problem ahead of time and brought it up to him.

I see, thanks for clarifying.
Regarding your board, you could put a mute next to last in the ambient chain, followed by a delay or reverb then the DI. That way, when you kill that chain, the last pedal will still give a sense of the tails, but be much less noisy. If you used a stereo mute you could keep both ends of the chain closed so there wouldn't be any signal in the ambient chain when you're not using it.

 

[Pacodelivery]

This thread has made me super interested in Zoia (I was reading about it last night), as a solution for this problem or just in general. I'm about to move into a house with a couple of modular synth wiz kids (who just got off tour with Dan Deacon!!) and I feel like getting a Zoia is a great way to help me fit in lol. Empress is just awesome. Problem is, what would it replace? Could it take the place of their trem pedal? I was thinking that as much as I love that pedal it takes up a lot of space on my board and doesn't get used as much as I would like.

Have you looked at an Empress Zoia?

initially, i thought that sounds like overkill, but I read your posts and still feel surprisingly confused here.

but the Zoia has two ins and outs, that you can route internally however you like per patch. It has mixing modules, gates, audio on/off switches.

Unrelated to the subject of your post, but it also would add potential midi modulation for your other pedals.

The Zoia has stereo in an out. You can certainly patch a bass signal in on the Left input then set it to send out the Left and/or Right output. You can rig it so that one of the outputs comes back into the other input, giving you an effects loop, and then back through a signal chain to the other output.

You could set up all your ambient sounds with internal effects modules and then use foot switches to control if a dry signal goes through to one output for your non-ambient sounds, or if the signal goes through the internal ambient patches and out the other output. You can design an internal switching system that should be pretty much noise free. You can also build it to have tails for the ambient decay if you want.

Keep in mind, the reverb patches use a decent amount of CPU. The Ghostverb patch is totally worth it. You'd definitely be able to use a ping pong delay and a big reverb sound as a pad.

 

[Pacodelivery]

That's interesting, if I go a route that involves a kill switch then leaving one pedal at the end is a neat idea.

I see, thanks for clarifying.
Regarding your board, you could put a mute next to last in the ambient chain, followed by a delay or reverb then the DI. That way, when you kill that chain, the last pedal will still give a sense of the tails, but be much less noisy. If you used a stereo mute you could keep both ends of the chain closed so there wouldn't be any signal in the ambient chain when you're not using it.

 

[Pacodelivery]

The question I'd guess I have is, is there a way to use a morningstar controller to achieve this? I'm imagining something where I have all the pedals in the ambient chain after a split turn on (in a preset scene) and also have the controller flip flop back and forth between two midi controlled kill switches at the end of each chain before each DI. Is that crazy? Is there a simpler way?

Morningstar stuff is about the best out there IMO. The best part is that the owner/developer is very good at adding useful features, fixing bugs quickly, and most importantly, listening to his users. (Check out the forum section.)

 

[Pacodelivery]

This would totally work! It's a little bit of a clunky solution for sure but if I can't find something more streamlined I very well might try this out.

I have one of these Morley Split-Mix units, that acts essentially like a dual-channel buffer/booster/mute when you run both 2 inputs and 2 outputs (A input goes to Output 1, B to Output 2): Morley Twin Mix Dual Channel Mixer/Combiner Pedal
Not a perfect solution for you because its not a one-footswitch solution, but you could definitely hit both switches simultaneously. Use something else to split your signal (like the Boss), then put something like this at the end of your FX chains and before the DIs and it could work. Bonus is you get a volume control for each channel right before it hits the board.

I see its also been discontinued like the Empress solution I posted previously (not sure why all these cool utility pedals don't get the love!), but I noticed a used one popped up in my search at Guitar Center for $40.

 

[monsterthompson]

Problem is, what would it replace? Could it take the place of their trem pedal? I was thinking that as much as I love that pedal it takes up a lot of space on my board and doesn't get used as much as I would like.

It is the size of the EchoSystem, which is about the size of the Trem (I think). You could probably build patches to eliminate the need for all of the pedals with a red check mark. You could probably get rid of the EQ pedal too, though that might be in the non-ambient path you have.

My only words of warning with the Zoia are that if you love a certain signature sound of a pedal like your chorus, you might not like the sound of the Zoia as a replacement. The sounds it has are fairly good, but I don't always find them inspiring. Additionally, you sacrifice knob-per-function and stomp switch options. You need to have a clear vision of the patch you're building and how you want to use it.

I just got a Euroburo (a euro rack Zoia) and I'm going to sell off a few items, including my EchoSystem. There are certain EchoSystem sounds I can't easily mimic with the Zoia patches, but I get close enough with the ones I use. YMMV.

 

[sunbeast]

The question I'd guess I have is, is there a way to use a morningstar controller to achieve this? I'm imagining something where I have all the pedals in the ambient chain after a split turn on (in a preset scene) and also have the controller flip flop back and forth between two midi controlled kill switches at the end of each chain before each DI. Is that crazy? Is there a simpler way?

I love my Morningstar MIDI controller and think they make the best MIDI controllers for pedalboards these days, but their pedal for integrating non-MIDI effects into their MIDI chain (the ML-5) is pretty lacking frankly (at least compared to what something like the Boss pedalboard controllers can do)- there is no stereo in/out for one, so that pretty much makes it a no-go for your application.

 

[sunbeast]

This would totally work! It's a little bit of a clunky solution for sure but if I can't find something more streamlined I very well might try this out.

Yeah it is not ideal, but surprisingly there don't seem to be too many other purpose-built things out there that would work at the moment! I've never used the Morley for this purpose exactly, but it totally should do it. I've used it for doing a dual instrument setup for flipping back and forth between two instruments going to seperate amps or DIs, and basically have had to do the dual-press to switch instruments so know its possible.

 

[scott sinner]

This thread has made me super interested in Zoia (I was reading about it last night), as a solution for this problem or just in general. I'm about to move into a house with a couple of modular synth wiz kids (who just got off tour with Dan Deacon!!) and I feel like getting a Zoia is a great way to help me fit in lol. Empress is just awesome. Problem is, what would it replace? Could it take the place of their trem pedal? I was thinking that as much as I love that pedal it takes up a lot of space on my board and doesn't get used as much as I would like.

I think the trem is the obvious choice

It is the size of the EchoSystem, which is about the size of the Trem (I think). You could probably build patches to eliminate the need for all of the pedals with a red check mark. You could probably get rid of the EQ pedal too, though that might be in the non-ambient path you have.

My only words of warning with the Zoia are that if you love a certain signature sound of a pedal like your chorus, you might not like the sound of the Zoia as a replacement. The sounds it has are fairly good, but I don't always find them inspiring. Additionally, you sacrifice knob-per-function and stomp switch options. You need to have a clear vision of the patch you're building and how you want to use it.

I just got a Euroburo (a euro rack Zoia) and I'm going to sell off a few items, including my EchoSystem. There are certain EchoSystem sounds I can't easily mimic with the Zoia patches, but I get close enough with the ones I use. YMMV.

View attachment 4495221

Ya I think the trem is the one I would least miss if it were me. It is a good trem but the sound never blew me away as unique. The patterns were nice, but Zoia can do all that and more via a sequencer and the lfos. Probably the eq too, depending on how and when you use it.

The Chorus the Moog is really distinct, if you love and use that a lot, Zoia isnt going to quite do that. It probably could do the Echosystem but if it were me, Id keep that just for CPU and pedal order reasons with the Zoia.

 

[monkeyfinger]

The question I'd guess I have is, is there a way to use a morningstar controller to achieve this? I'm imagining something where I have all the pedals in the ambient chain after a split turn on (in a preset scene) and also have the controller flip flop back and forth between two midi controlled kill switches at the end of each chain before each DI. Is that crazy? Is there a simpler way?

Sure. That would be no problem for the MC8. A single button press can be programmed to toggle between two states.

You still won't be able to engage individual pedals without the ML5.

 

[Mr. voodoobass]

Before, you used to switch between loop a/b on the ls-2 and that went to your amp?
Now you want b to go direct and still just switch between a/b?
Did you get more noise now on the b loop?
If so, you might just need b to be isolated from ground. Lehle and radial has boxes that can fix that.
If it is noise from feedback and decay from delay and reverb, i'd say a volume pedal would sort that.
The expensive way is midi and something like the ml5 and a simple controller to have them on/off.
Or building the patch of pedals and put in the fx loop of a line6 hx stomp, then on it switch between a/b.
That's all i can think of right now lol

 

[GMC]

For me, I wouldn't think about a switcher unless it can re-arrange the order of the loops. Plus I'd want my switcher to double up as a Midi controller...so I have one box to control both midi and analogue pedals.
For me, the Boss ES-5 fits that requirement perfectly. Everything in my ES-5's loops are mono, everything after that are Stereo (Mods, EQ, Delay and Verbs).

 

[sunbeast]

This would totally work! It's a little bit of a clunky solution for sure but if I can't find something more streamlined I very well might try this out.

I just thought of a simple solution that should work. Most basic FX loopers mute the "Send" output when you bypass a loop, so you could actually use them as AB boxes by toggling between two loops with only a cable going from the Send to whatever destination you want.
Does your "bass" chain also have a noise issue such that you need to mute it after all your effects? If not then I may have an answer to your issue using a simple passive 2-loop series FX looper. Unfortunately the Boss can't do it I don't think because there is no way to configure the Boss as a serial looper (running Loop A into Loop B at the same time).

Take something like this: 2 Looper w/Master Bypass
Plug your bass into the input, put your "pad/ambient" effects in Loop 1, use the Send from Loop 2 to your ambient DI with nothing plugged into the Return, send the "Out" to your regular "bass" chain of effects and DI. When you engage both loops A+B simultaneously, you will send your bass through your ambient FX and then to the appropriate DI, and since there is nothing plugged into the Return of Loop 2 your input to the other line of effects will be muted (no signal sent to the "Output" jack). Bypass both Loops 1/2 simultaneously and your bass will go directly to the Output jack and through your regular bass FX chain. This Loopmaster box has a master Bypass button and the ability to have both loops on at once (1+2), so you would only need to hit the bypass button to toggle back and forth between your two chains. The ambient loop would be totally disconnected from the DI when bypassed so no more noise. The other "bass" FX chain would still be in line with the other DI, but have no input signal and so effectively muted as long as that chain has a low-enough noise floor compared to your "ambient" chain.

You could actually get both chains completely muted if you were to get a 3-loop passive bypass looper that could toggle between "Loops 1+2 engaged" and "Loop 3 engaged" with one button press. In that case just set up loops 1 and 2 as I described above, then put your "bass" effects chain in loop 3 and it should work great. Finding a simple looper that can toggle between those two states with one press would be difficult though, which is why I suggested the 2-loop solution that I saw Loopmaster already makes (I bet there are other loopers that have similar functionality as well).

Then again, if you order from Loopmaster direct you may as well just try to order something custom-tailored to your needs unless you can find something else that does similar that you can pick up quicker (you could even build your own without too much work).

 

[Real Soon]

@Pacodelivery Yeah the Klein Bottle mixes back down to one channel... if you use it in its "intended" fashion.

No reason you couldn't treat each channel as a whole separate output, though! As far as I know, nothing weird happens if the return is unplugged on a given channel.

Basically, it could be used as a buffered 4-channel splitter if you wanted: each of the three switchable channels + a clean out that'll be muted anytime any of the channels is enabled.

(Cool thing about it too is, you can choose to mute it or dial up the dry signal via mini pot. And do stuff like create signal feedback loops for ambient fun. It's a *really* flexible pedal)

 

[Pacodelivery]

That's so rad. I could definitely see taking the trem off and adding a Zoia in the future!

But yeah you're right it's the chorus that's irreplacable, at least right now. Currently in our set going into our lead single I use fuzz into the moog chorus set to vibrato with the feedback and depth dimed. I drone a low E (key of the song) with one hand while the other plays with the delay time and and the LFO rate. It's **epic**, especially on bigger shows where we have a proper sub system. I had a guy come up to me after a show who flew helicopters and he said it didn't just sound like a helicopter it FELT like being next to a helicopter

And that's in addition to me using it as for more typical chorus, flange, and vibrato sounds in the set. SUCH an amazing pedal, I'm bummed they discontinued it.

It is the size of the EchoSystem, which is about the size of the Trem (I think). You could probably build patches to eliminate the need for all of the pedals with a red check mark. You could probably get rid of the EQ pedal too, though that might be in the non-ambient path you have.

My only words of warning with the Zoia are that if you love a certain signature sound of a pedal like your chorus, you might not like the sound of the Zoia as a replacement. The sounds it has are fairly good, but I don't always find them inspiring. Additionally, you sacrifice knob-per-function and stomp switch options. You need to have a clear vision of the patch you're building and how you want to use it.

I just got a Euroburo (a euro rack Zoia) and I'm going to sell off a few items, including my EchoSystem. There are certain EchoSystem sounds I can't easily mimic with the Zoia patches, but I get close enough with the ones I use. YMMV.

View attachment 4495221

 

[Pacodelivery]

Ha! You two were on the same wavelenght, I just wrote a post responding to @monsterthompson saying a similar thing. Yeah the trem is nice but replacable, that chorus is something tho.

I think the trem is the obvious choice


Ya I think the trem is the one I would least miss if it were me. It is a good trem but the sound never blew me away as unique. The patterns were nice, but Zoia can do all that and more via a sequencer and the lfos. Probably the eq too, depending on how and when you use it.

The Chorus the Moog is really distinct, if you love and use that a lot, Zoia isnt going to quite do that. It probably could do the Echosystem but if it were me, Id keep that just for CPU and pedal order reasons with the Zoia.

 

[Pacodelivery]

Yeah I'm very into getting an MC6 or 8 but I was hesistant about the ml5 as well. I think I can do away with the need for it by doing a couple of changes, such that every pedal in the whole ambient chain is midi capable and I can just turn them all on and off with a controller. My current ambient chain is:

EHX Pitchfork > Boss EQ200 > Eventide H9 > Empress Echosystem > TC HOF > Empress Trem

All of those are midi capable except the pitchfork and the HOF. There's plenty of midi capable reverb pedals I can replace the HOF with, without taking up more board space. The Pitchfork is trickier. I know others have gone down this road, but it's wild to me that basically the only polyphonic pitch shifter with midi control is the EHX HOG or digitech bass whammy, both of which are waaaayyy to huge to really consider for me right now. This thread talks about it. There is [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for the pog2, but I think the route I'm more likely to go is [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], which is a cool little product that just serves as a single midi true bypass loop.

I love my Morningstar MIDI controller and think they make the best MIDI controllers for pedalboards these days, but their pedal for integrating non-MIDI effects into their MIDI chain (the ML-5) is pretty lacking frankly (at least compared to what something like the Boss pedalboard controllers can do)- there is no stereo in/out for one, so that pretty much makes it a no-go for your application.

Sure. That would be no problem for the MC8. A single button press can be programmed to toggle between two states.

You still won't be able to engage individual pedals without the ML5.

 

[Pacodelivery]

Ahh I feel like I didn't do a good job of explaining this initially. The ls2 is JUST a simple single channel true bypass looper right now - it just engages the whole chain of ambient pedals or takes them out of the signal chain, just like a bunch of other products from one control or loopmaster or whatever do. I don't get more noise on the ambient chain, it's *always* a little noisy because there's like two reverbs, two delays, octave, eq, and trem all running at once.

The HX stomp is definitely an interesting option.

Before, you used to switch between loop a/b on the ls-2 and that went to your amp?
Now you want b to go direct and still just switch between a/b?
Did you get more noise now on the b loop?
If so, you might just need b to be isolated from ground. Lehle and radial has boxes that can fix that.
If it is noise from feedback and decay from delay and reverb, i'd say a volume pedal would sort that.
The expensive way is midi and something like the ml5 and a simple controller to have them on/off.
Or building the patch of pedals and put in the fx loop of a line6 hx stomp, then on it switch between a/b.
That's all i can think of right now lol