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Peeps who can't keep a beat

On the original topic here...

I have had a few difference run ins with the rhythmically challenged over the years. Everything from cant tap foot....to cant find 1...or count from 1 to 4 then repeat....or something as simple as finding the offbeats...or subdividing...or any iteration of the worst possible.

I have found ONE thing to be consistent with all of them...you cant teach a student who doesnt WANT to learn. You should be able to tell the interest/attention level of any student fairly quickly...if not within the first lesson or two. I agree that positive reinforcement IS the path to discovering if the student is into it...but dont waste your time on those that arent.
 
I just personally feel strongly that "either you got it or you don't" statements generally help no one learn.
I have seen too many people simply give up because they believe they "just don't got it" when really all they don't have is the will to make a sustained effort.
I see this phenomenon play out in all areas of life, not just music, so my personal feelings about this tend to creep into my words.
Sorry if I upset anyone with my absolute statements.
I promise it's only my opinion.

I also have to disagree with you, man - although I do it in a perfectly cheerful and respectful manner!

My view is that talent is something you are or aren't born with; skill is something we all must strive to attain. Talent without skill is utterly worthless. Skill without talent can work out okay, but talent + skill trumps sheer talent. Generally. In my experience. YMMV.

However, I also agree with you in that adopting a snobbish, "you don't got the talent" approach does nobody any good (except maybe the snob), because I have yet to encounter any human being who was completely talentless. Some of us have more, and some of us have less, but I honestly think that to be completely without musical talent would require being either unborn or dead.

Same goes for all areas of life; nobody is without a certain natural aptitude. The only difference is how hard you're gonna need to work.


To the OP: I agree with other posters in that rythym can be learned; however I feel that you ought to be straight-up with your students and tell them that they will need to put in time and effort before they get it. Tell them you're willing to teach if they're willing to learn, and that they can get it if they stick with it - because they can - but I suspect some of them will probably decide that it's not worth the effort and move on. And that's their choice to make. Just be sure that it is their choice, and not yours.
 
Yeah I think that talent without skill is useless, skill without talent is still useful, though. There are many of those players who end up being workhorses that hold the fort down in really good bands and ensembles and end up with very impressive resumes.

There's nothing practice can't solve. But the desire to practice when you're sucking might be a talent in itself.
 
My two cents here:
Some people are gifted and easily learn their instrument, but, that doesn't mean that people who aren't "gifted" can't be as good as the people who are. My singing abilities are horrible but my instrument abilities are amazing, or at least what people tell me I'm not to sure on that one, but if I wanted to be good at vocals all it takes is practice. Practice makes perfect, fits this perfectly. Anyone can be amazing on an instrument, it just takes time, practice and patience. It's not easy learning an instrument, reading music, or tab, is like learning an entirely new language. Plus learning scales, harmonics, modes etc. is hard. it's a talent just to be patient and practice enough to learn all of it.
 
I've played a few gigs with a drummer who really just could not groove and during a gig he would go outside and smoke a doobie for the 3rd set or so and he'd come back in and would lock it down like nobody's business. Pretty much an astonishing transformation. I can't jump to the conclusion that a doobie would help all rhythmless folk, but I do know of one case that it worked. I don't smoke btw.
 
I am not a gifted musician in any way. I have some pretty good chops after all these years but I had earn every one of them with excessive practice. Nothing came easy.

Also when I started I couldn't keep a beat or play in time, or even detect the difference in many pitches. However, I was gifted with a sense of extraordinary stubbornness and a belief that I was smart enough to learn on my own.

So yes, such things can be learned if the student wants to learn them. I learned with the metronome setting and various beats on a drum machine.
 
Tone deafness and not being able to keep rhythm are 2 completely different issues that have nothing to do with each other. You can have one or both but they are not connected in any way. We recently auditioned a female singer for (the second time) our choir who had both issues and Male who had a great voice but he had rhythm issues. We rejected her (for the second time) but selected him. With a fair amount of work he has greatly improved his rhythm problem. So you can definately teach rhythm although it may not be easy. Of course some people simply can not be taught some things. thats just a natural fact.
 
There's actually quite a bit of scientific evidence against the concept of "natural talent."

Here a decent summary of some of the research: Invalid Link Removed.

BTW, this is pretty well-known research, I just happened to find this summary of it written by a bassist (I don't know Joe Hubbard at all).
 
There's actually quite a bit of scientific evidence against the concept of "natural talent."

Here a decent summary of some of the research: Invalid Link Removed.

BTW, this is pretty well-known research, I just happened to find this summary of it written by a bassist (I don't know Joe Hubbard at all).

I'm sure there is "scientific evidence" for and against. In my experience, some people pick up on things quickly and jet ahead of their peers. I call this talent. Study on, oh scientists.
 
There's still no evidence of absolute pitch being trainable, so at least that's one natural talent. And if one can exist, so can others.


I read in a book called "Musicophilia" by Oliver Sacks (One of my favourite books btw.) a chapter in which a study was conducted on students in a chinese conservatory about the prevalence of perfect pitch. Results showed that something like 70% of those inrolled there who started musical lessons by age 5 had perfect pitch, about 50% of those who started musical lessons by age 7 and the percentage dropped until there was a very small percentage of students with perfect pitch among those who started musical lessons at age 10 or later.

So there was a theory that in early life we all (or a very large percentage anyhow) have perfect pitch and maybe even a form of synthesia but we quickly lose it if we don't put it to use.

If you guys want accurate numbers on that study I can write down the exact quote because I wrote everything from memory so it's not 100% correct but it's in that ballpark.

I do think there are some people who are more gifted apparently at some activities but it's hard to say how much of it they were literally "born with". Truth is I don't really like the word talent because it can often times come off as smug.
Just my two cents :)
 
Do you really need a scientist to tell you whether or not someone can have natural talent? Are you that unsure of your own powers of observation?

Talent with skill is best. But sometimes talent can overcome a lack of skills, so talent without skill isn't completely worthless.

In regard to the OP, people without talent can learn, but I wouldn't say the sky is the limit. I can practice basketball 8 hours a day but I'll never be able to dunk.

I have more experience in flight instruction than music instruction. Some people have natural aptitude and others have little. Some instructors have told individuals to give it up. Other instructors then taught those individuals to fly. They could learn to a certain level, but they would have washed out of Top Gun.
 
If you're saying absolute pitch isn't something you're born with but it has to be cultivated before the age of 10, that doesn't help a 20 year old, does it? So as far as that person goes, they don't got that talent and that's the end of that story.

I do think that a lot of musical skills are best learned before the age of 12. The way that second-language speakers usually have an accent if they learn after that age, many musicians who start late have a bit of awkwardness that makes learning the most advanced techniques that much harder than those who started very early. You don't see many classical musicians who started at 16.

The lesson learned? Force your kids to take lessons at an early age. They'll thank you later.
 
I've seen a 'natural' in action. My nephew who just turned two. I have video of him keeping time with a song that was playing by the pool. I looked over and he was clapping and even 'conducting' - but it was dead on time-wise and it looked very much like he was fully aware of rhythm.

I have a close friend who I've know for over 30 years. He and I began our rock 'n roll lifestyle together and he could learn songs note for note like a savant. But ask him to improvise or groove on some 12 bar and suddenly the bars had random counts... sometimes 4 beats, sometimes 5... the entire time you could see his brain trying to comprehend counting and playing. In his case, if he didn't have something to map to - a pre-existing song, he couldn't hold a beat if it came with handles.

He begged another friend of mine and me to "teach him rhythm". We lived together at the time and spent countless hours marching, clapping, counting, breathing... We couldn't find the magic bullet that would allow him to connect the dots.

To my unscientific, but scientifically interested mind it appeared that his 'creative side' and his 'logical side' simply could not function in tandem. If he could learn a song, he could play a song and to this day his technical skills are incredible. He can play riffs and licks and lines out the wazoo that would melt your face. But ask him to comp rhythm and here comes that awkward, clumsy, non-rhythm having dude.

I feel that he's one who can and does function in bands - but not because he's got what it takes. More because some bands can have one guy who brings his "A" game, solo-wise and compensates for his lack of rhythm by surrounding him with other rhythmically adept players.
 
Do you really need a scientist to tell you whether or not someone can have natural talent? Are you that unsure of your own powers of observation?

You are setting up a false dichotomy. Science is just organized observation and, if done properly, accounts for individual biases, statistical anomalies, etc. So it's not a matter of being sure or unsure of one's own powers of observation. Rather, it's using a proven method to greatly improve and enhance the quality and accuracy of your own observations.
 
OK I AM a neuroscientist ( well I'm a PhD student FWIW ) and I study language and music processing. I don't want to stifle conversation but I thought I'd drop in my US$.02 since this falls into my field.

Natural talent is a complex phenomenon. Some people are inclined towards music at a very young age, so they might pay more attention to it, even if they don't start playing an instrument right away. In a sense, that counts as practice. As far as why someone might be more inclined to pay attention to it, well that's not so well understood. I personally think the 10,000 hour rule is a good general rule. There will always be some contradictions but that's beside the point.

Mozart was regarded as a musical genius, but it's often forgotten that his father was a famous musical instructor, and the baby Mozart started lessons, like the day after being born (OK exaggeration :D). Let's say he started lessons on his 2nd birthday. He could use his hands by then. If his dad had him practice 6 hours a day...So, by age 7 he would have hit his 10,000 hours! Thus, he's a pro at age 7. This sounds far-fetched, but there is evidence that this is what happened!

It's also important to note that the brain is much more plastic at a young age. Ever tried learning a language at age 40? It's HARD and you'll never sound totally natural at it. Yet, babies can pick up language automatically!! So if you start playing music at age 3 (a la Victor Wooten) then you'll have your 10,000 hours WAY earlier in life, and thus your brain will be naturally more wired to process music. It's like you'd be a native speaker of music. If you start later in life, your brain anatomy will still change, but the changes will be less and less extreme the later you start (and the less you practice).

As far as perfect pitch goes...there is a theory that we are all born with it but lose it. Chinese languages have a number of tones that are relevant to the meaning of the words (Mandarin has 4 Cantonese has 9 IIRC) so that, for example, 'bu' with a rising tone means something totally different from 'bu' with a falling tone. Most native speakers start their words at several distinct pitches depending on if it starts at a high/low/medium pitch. [Full disclosure I don't speak much Mandarin but I know the gist of it and I'm learning it bit by bit].

In English, our pitch usage in language is limited to the emotional meaning/sarcasm/question/statement domain, but in Chinese languages it changes the actual meaning of the word itself.

So...the idea is that for most Western languages, we don't really need to differentiate between exact pitches. We use relative pitch more. It doesn't make as much difference as it would in Chinese, and thus more Chinese children retain their innate absolute pitch. That's just a theory that's floating around, but it makes sense. If you USE that skill on a daily basis, then heck yeah it's going to stick around. If you never need to use it, the odds of retaining it are reduced.

There are always exceptions, but my view is that Nurture plays a MUCH bigger role on average than nature. We are all born with a huge potential and the more we use our brains (from the FIRST day of birth) the better we'll be at our many skills.

OK rant over. :)