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Perfect 5ths' aren't Really Perfect
- Thread starter KarateChris
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Am I wrong? Please educate me.
They are perfect on fretless string instruments.
Yes, to use standard terminology, piano is a percussion instrument. In an orchestra, the strings (string section) are the instruments with bows.
I learned to tune pianos before I learned music theory. Just the idea that the 5th is called perfect when it's not exactly perfect (ok fretless is) always bothered me. I know its not the same; piano tuning and music theory.
Did the term "perfect" originate when historic temperments were in use and 5ths WERE tuned perfectly?
yea, I know
So the answer to your question is... sort of!. Perfect fifth, fourth, octave and unison originated early on and are called "perfect" because they do, inherently, have fewer (if any) beat tones and dissonance in the interval. They are very consonant intervals.
It's of course more complex than that, but that was the origin of the term.
No matter if they're free of beat tone sympathy or tuned ideally for each version (like, in a piano which is never perfectly in tune for a fifth), it is still much less dissonant than anything else (a 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, and oh my don't even BRING UP minor/augmented! LoL... the times were much simpler back then).
A prefect 5th is a frequency ratio of 3 to 2. A perfect fourth is a frequency ratio of 4 to 3. Both of those can, in theory, be played on a fretless instrument (though you have to be good to hit it and not have to slide one of the notes a bit). The reason a perfect fifth is important is, if you play two notes a fifth apart, the "beat notes" (aka intermod frequencies in a non-linear system) are an octave below the lower and an octave above the lower intended note - they all sound nice to the ear. A perfect fourth is a note that's a perfect fifth below the octave above the lower note. It has similar (though not identical) good "beat notes".
Playing bass, you can play octaves anywhere and get away with it - the difference frequency is the same as the lower note, so if the lower note by itself isn't muddy, you haven't added to the issue by playing a second note. Moving up, you'll find that somewhere higher in frequency (this depends on the rig), fifths are OK. A bit higher, 4ths are OK, etc. Managing all of this is part of the art of playing bass - knowing what double stops sound good and what ones don't. I play a LOT of double stops, and have rules of thumb about what I can and can't play.
What we have on fretted instruments (and pianos, etc - things where the notes are not infinitely variable) is a compromise - the steps aren't such that 4ths or 5ths are perfect, but they're close. If you made them perfect in one key, they'd get worse in other keys. The half step interval is...the twelfth root of 2. That interval makes the octaves (which are VERY important) perfect in EVERY key, but other intervals aren't quite what you'd ultimately like them to be. No real way out of this for instruments that have fixed frequencies assigned to keys or frets - you gotta adopt some compromise, and live with its imperfections.
Playing bass, you can play octaves anywhere and get away with it - the difference frequency is the same as the lower note, so if the lower note by itself isn't muddy, you haven't added to the issue by playing a second note. Moving up, you'll find that somewhere higher in frequency (this depends on the rig), fifths are OK. A bit higher, 4ths are OK, etc. Managing all of this is part of the art of playing bass - knowing what double stops sound good and what ones don't. I play a LOT of double stops, and have rules of thumb about what I can and can't play.
What we have on fretted instruments (and pianos, etc - things where the notes are not infinitely variable) is a compromise - the steps aren't such that 4ths or 5ths are perfect, but they're close. If you made them perfect in one key, they'd get worse in other keys. The half step interval is...the twelfth root of 2. That interval makes the octaves (which are VERY important) perfect in EVERY key, but other intervals aren't quite what you'd ultimately like them to be. No real way out of this for instruments that have fixed frequencies assigned to keys or frets - you gotta adopt some compromise, and live with its imperfections.
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In my view, most musicians don't worry about temperaments. Only keyboard and electronic instruments can have a straightforward temperament. String players nudge the notes around to make them sound better. Wind instruments are all over the place. Fretted instruments are a bag of compromises.
The viola da gamba was often set up with paired frets, so that the player had a choice of tunings for particular intervals.
It's technically possible to play tempered music on a fretless bass. Playing into a tuner will tell you whether it's actually happening or not.
Earlier keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord went out of tune easily, and it wasn't practical to call up a professional tuner, so the musician had to do it themselves before each performance. The historical temperaments were "designed" to be harmonious enough for the task at hand, while being reasonably easy to learn and efficient to carry out.
The viola da gamba was often set up with paired frets, so that the player had a choice of tunings for particular intervals.
It's technically possible to play tempered music on a fretless bass. Playing into a tuner will tell you whether it's actually happening or not.
Earlier keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord went out of tune easily, and it wasn't practical to call up a professional tuner, so the musician had to do it themselves before each performance. The historical temperaments were "designed" to be harmonious enough for the task at hand, while being reasonably easy to learn and efficient to carry out.
Yeah I think about this stuff constantly while I’m playing Smoke On The Water. It helps me play it more in tune.
Perfect consonances in the context of a two part contrapuntal texture are P5, Perfect unison and P8. Imperfect consonances are M/m 3rds and M/m 6ths. All the other intervals are considered dissonant including the P4 (unless used as a filler between a root and octave above). For ex. C - G - C. In this case the P4 (G up to C) is considered a “consonant 4th.” This has been the norm since about the 15th-16th centuries (Renaissance era). In any case a lot of it is pretty subjective and tied to musical style and practice in Western European Art music. If you want more depth check out the standard treatise regarding species counterpoint by Johann Fux called “The Art of Counterpoint.” The medieval theorists first named this interval stuff but the P4 got kicked out of the consonant interval club by the time of Dufay, Josquin, Palestrina, and Lassus in the Renaissance. Ok, that’s enough, temperament is a whole different issue.
I'm named after my great-grandfather, a Danish guy who lived to 103, didn't speak much English, and played piano. Grandpa Seashore was a religious fellow; he saw me flailing around on me grandma's upright when I was three or four and admonished my mom to "only let me play the good notes".
He is the origin of the concept of "perfect intervals", those platonic intervals by which all others are judged and inevitably found lacking.
He is the origin of the concept of "perfect intervals", those platonic intervals by which all others are judged and inevitably found lacking.
Wait until you dig into how poorly thirds are tempered.
Hey, let’s just toss the whole mess into a dumpster, set fire to it and start over.
Or... we could just accept that certain terminology is tied to a specific context.
Hey, let’s just toss the whole mess into a dumpster, set fire to it and start over.
Or... we could just accept that certain terminology is tied to a specific context.
A perfect 5th doesn’t beat, thats why its perfect. But if you stack perfect 5ths all the way around the circle, you would end up with an octave of your original note that would beat. So equal temperament makes the 5ths beat a little bit to keep the octaves clean.
You said you learned how to tune a piano, then you must already know this, right?
Right, confusing why this thread if OP has studied piano tuning...
Totally depends. Perfect fifth and minor third for power metal, perfect and aug fourths for thrash, minor seconds and thirds for death metal, minor seconds, thirds, and sixths for black metal, add 9s for post-metal... and so much more.
No.
As @Wasnex already pointed out, the term Perfect, in the context of intervals, has nothing to do with temperament. Perfect in this context simply means " not augmented or diminished"
There's a diatonic tritone present in the Dom7 chord... a double stop using the 3rd and the 7th. I use that a lot for blues, especially to end songs. Well, I don't use it so much that it gets old, but it's a nice thing to have in your bag. You're welcome.
