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Double Bass Personal Experence: Difference Between Old Kay and New Engelhart

M

mythmaker99

Sep 11, 2011
14
0
middle georgia
#1
I've played electric basses for years, but wanted to finally get into the upright world and play out at bluegrass festivals. I bought a new Englehart and hard it set up professionally and loved it. Played great, sounded great, and once I finally got some calluses LOL and endurance built up I was set. Didn't want anything else! And from the time I bought it new to today, over 2 years, there's an improvement over how it sounds already.

Then as our set was ending at a bluegrass festival the Bluegrass Brothers were coming on behind us and as I was walking off stage one said he had a Kay for sell and asked if I was interested. He was great about it and let me take it over to my camper and play it for nearly 2 hours. No worries or hassles. Needless to say I was hooked!

The Kays' a '63, and the strings are the ones that were on it when I got it. I think he said Innovation Super Silvers. It sounds like a big dog compared to the Engelharts' little dog!

I still like the Engelhart and in 20-30 years it'll probably sound comparable to what the Kay does today. But as of now...no comparison! In jam sessions where I would have had to play 'hard' to be heard with the Engelhart, now normal playing and the Kay can be heard through the other instruments. And the tone is amazing.

For anyone out there thinking about buying a new upright, the age a bass, or any other instrument really, has on it, as long as it's been taken care of, really improves the sound. As they get older I expect the price that people are asking for old, well maintained Kays to keep going up, but for me, it was worth it.
 
#3
mythmaker99 said:
And from the time I bought it new to today, over 2 years, there's an improvement over how it sounds already.
Click to expand...

Could the improvement be in the player's technique?

There's a lot variables to consider (like, for example, what would the Engelhart sound like with the same strings?), and, frankly, I'm beginning to question how helpful broad generalizations are when evaluating basses. But there seems to be at least a loose consensus that plywood basses don't improve with age the way carved basses do. If the Kay is better, it's probably not its age that's making the difference, but how it was constructed. Through the decades, there was quite a lot of variations just in Kays themselves...
 
#4
brianrost said:
New = tight

Sounds good now = will sound unreal in 10 years ;)
Click to expand...

Try 20 or 50 or even 100 years. I highly doubt that a bass' sound can develop that quickly. Also, fully carved basses are going to develop faster, but still I'd say 10 years is too short of that drastic of a sound improvement.

Just because the bass is new, it doesn't mean it's tight, relatively. A brand new bass can feel loose if it's made by a skilled luthier. Typically those are going to be higher priced instruments. Add 50-100 years of constantly playing on them and they too will become unreal.

Technique is pretty huge tho. As they say, the sound is in your hands.
 
#5
I agree with hdiddy and Thumpie. The Engel probably will not sound at all like the Kay does in 10, 20, 50, or even 100 years. Yes, there seems to be some effect of age/playing for ply basses but it sure doesn't seem to be much.

IMO, even the effect of age, per se, is very often overstated for carved basses. Time does not make a mediocre carved bass sound like a gem. There do seem to be very large changes in the first few days, weeks, and, perhaps, months of a carved bass's life. After that, it's a slow change. Basically, the character you have when it's relatively new is what you'll always have.

Then again, I've said this before in this thread that's right on point.

mythmaker99 was dealing with, at least, two confounding factors. An old Kay sounded better than a new Engel. He attributed much of the difference to the age of the former rather than to the fact that it was a Kay. Of course, there are many other factors involved... the particular bass, how it was set up, on and on and on. All of those have to be accounted for before one can evaluate the effect of age, per se. The evidence leans largely against age being a substantial factor for plys.
 
#7
drurb said:
I agree with hdiddy and Thumpie. The Engel probably will not sound at all like the Kay does in 10, 20, 50, or even 100 years. Yes, there seems to be some effect of age/playing for ply basses but it sure doesn't seem to be much.

IMO, even the effect of age, per se, is very often overstated for carved basses. Time does not make a mediocre carved bass sound like a gem. There do seem to be very large changes in the first few days, weeks, and, perhaps, months of a carved bass's life. After that, it's a slow change. Basically, the character you have when it's relatively knew is what you'll always have.

Then again, I've said this before in this thread that's right on point.

mythmaker99 was dealing with, at least, two confounding factors. An old Kay sounded better than a new Engel. He attributed much of the difference to the age of the former rather than to the fact that it was a Kay. Of course, there are many other factors involved... the particular bass, how it was set up, on and on and on. All of those have to be accounted for before one can evaluate the effect of age, per se. The evidence leans largely against age being a substantial factor for plys.
Click to expand...

This.
 
#8
Some of the post I agree with, some not.

I still play the engelhart, and have had 2 different kind of strings on it. Both were set up by same guy. Who's well known and respected in our area. Strings on the engelhart were the same as what is on the kay now before i changed them. The Kay is an M-1 and Engelhart is a EG-1, which is a ES-1 supreme with rounded corners. So same player, same technique, used to have same strings, and I think, not positive, that the basses are simliar in all but age. If someone knows different please let me know.
And in 2 years I've heard a difference in the Engelhart as it has aged. I really think as it gets older, older being variable, it will continues to improve.
As an aside: My father has a 59 gibson that sounds unreal. And just sold a 70 something gibson. I know, I know, differnet times = different standards. But the 59 gibson was a low end model at the time. Well kept, played constantly, sounds incredible. And he was also the same one playing the 70...I think 73 gibson, and used the same strings on both. No comparison.

All evidence to the contrary overlooked LOL I still think an aged instrument that's been played and well kept will sound better than than a similar newer model.
 
#10
mythmaker99 said:
Some of the post I agree with, some not.

I still play the engelhart, and have had 2 different kind of strings on it. Both were set up by same guy. Who's well known and respected in our area. Strings on the engelhart were the same as what is on the kay now before i changed them. The Kay is an M-1 and Engelhart is a EG-1, which is a ES-1 supreme with rounded corners. So same player, same technique, used to have same strings, and I think, not positive, that the basses are simliar in all but age. If someone knows different please let me know. And in 2 years I've heard a difference in the Engelhart as it has aged. I really think as it gets older, older being variable, it will continues to improve.
Click to expand...

I believe that I know different. First, your Engel is not your Kay. Even if they were constructed within days of each other, at the same factory, there could be differences. Those differences would, admittedly, be rather small, especially considering that we are talking about ply basses. You've certainly controlled a fair number of the variables. Same player, same type of strings. Same setup? Well, not really. A few mm this way or that on the sound post can make a big difference. Still, let's assume the setups are as close to being the same as they can be. That leads us to...

Second, Engels are not Kays. That's especially true for new Engels. While my own personal preferences don't run toward Kays, I did own and play one for decades. Not one Engel I ever played sounded as good as a nice vintage Kay. Not one. They are not, in fact, constructed of the same materials. One can read here at length how those materials changed over the decades.

So, I would assert that you have two basses that differ in important respects other than age. In fact, given the lack of substantial changes in age that occur with ply basses, the likelihood is that the differences you notice have very little to do with age, per se.

I understand that you are convinced that you perceive a difference in the sound of the Engel as it ages. Frankly, there are other (more) plausible explanations for that perception than age, per se. You have an "n" of one whereas the understanding that plys don't change much with age comes from the experience of many players and luthiers having experience with many, many basses. Note that I am not saying that there is no change that can be attributed to age, just that it's very small.

So, all things considered, when you put a nice old Kay next to an Engel, the weight of the evidence is such that the differences one hears are attributable in large measure to factors other than age, per se.

I probably won't be around anymore when your Engel reaches the age that your Kay is now but I'd bet a cookie that, assuming they are both around, when that day comes, they will each sound essentially the same as they do right now.
 
#12
Engelhardt basses are a relatively economical choice for players wanting a contemporary domestically made plywood bass. They are quite popular and have a lot of diehard fans. Having played a great many examples in the last 33 years, my own personal experience is that they usually don't quite measure up to the 1960s Kay basses in terms of construction quality or sound. Most Kay players will agree that the 1940s and 1950s examples have a looser response and a richer tone than the 1960s examples. Being factory instruments, there is a lot of variation, but these are the general trends. One can find standouts from the 1960s and some doggy sounding examples form the 1940s and 1950s. The only Engelhardt that I've played that I thought measured up to the 1960s Kays was a 1970 C-1.
 

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