Phil Jones Bass... really that good?

[SunByrne]

So, PJB seems to get a lot of love around here, and I'm kind of wondering about that. They're expensive, and the thing that seems so odd to me is the driver sizes all seem too small. Many of the drivers are only 5", and the "big" drivers are only 7". Most speakers need 10" to get real bass, and I generally prefer the sound of 12" drivers over 10".

So how does PJB do it? Do they just not produce much fundamental, like it's been through an HPF? Or does it really get down to that low E even with the small drivers? (And if so, how do they do it?)

There aren't any PJB dealers near me so I haven't been able to hear one in person and I'm curious.

 

[bholder]

Yes, really that good. I don't know how they do it.

 

[lug]

Phil Jones burned his physics book an never looked back.

 

[acid bass]

I actually have never played through a Phil Jones cab, nor can I say I've ever heard one in person. I did own a D-400 head for a short while. It was a perfectly good class D, but of the heads I've owned it was the most difficult one to get good bass response out of. Very heavy mid and treble. Maybe that's just their milieu, mid-focused range with both the heads and speakers.

 

[LowWay]

I tried Phil Jones this summer. And bergantino, and some other stuff.

the Phil jones C4 cabs are smaller than the Bergantino NXT112s, but the same weight. The Bergantino’s sound better and are louder in my opinion.

In the end the NXT112s sounded better to me than the 212, I got 4 of them.

 

[ShawnG]

I tried Phil Jones this summer. And bergantino, and some other stuff.

the Phil jones C4 cabs are smaller than the Bergantino NXT112s, but the same weight. The Bergantino’s sound better and are louder in my opinion.

View attachment 4058819

In the end the NXT112s sounded better to me than the 212, I got 4 of them.

View attachment 4058822

I have no problem believing that the full-size Bergs were preferred, but, per the OP’s question: “Do they just not produce much fundamental, like it's been through an HPF? Or does it really get down to that low E even with the small drivers? (And if so, how do they do it?)”

 

[SunByrne]

I tried Phil Jones this summer. And bergantino, and some other stuff.

the Phil jones C4 cabs are smaller than the Bergantino NXT112s, but the same weight. The Bergantino’s sound better and are louder in my opinion.

Some very cool stacks.

What didn't you like about the PJB's sound? Not enough low end?

 

[Leonid Nidis]

I got a pjb combo 4x5 speakers.
I'm dont feel I'm missing anything compared to a gk 1x15 I had.
The amp is bg400,very compact but not light 18 kg.

 

[telecopy]

So, PJB seems to get a lot of love around here, and I'm kind of wondering about that. They're expensive, and the thing that seems so odd to me is the driver sizes all seem too small. Many of the drivers are only 5", and the "big" drivers are only 7". Most speakers need 10" to get real bass, and I generally prefer the sound of 12" drivers over 10".

So how does PJB do it? Do they just not produce much fundamental, like it's been through an HPF? Or does it really get down to that low E even with the small drivers? (And if so, how do they do it?)

There aren't any PJB dealers near me so I haven't been able to hear one in person and I'm curious.

I was just looking at their website. The speaker cabs have typical bass cab specs.. except the speakers are tiny. I guess, as they repeatedly say here, driver size is not related to low frequency capability.

 

[msb]

I just got a little C2 cab with two 5 in speakers , it's good at low volume , I'm running a little GK MB200 head with it , it farts out if I turn it up . I just plan to use it for quiet home practice so I'm keeping it . It sounds good . I have a Bergantino Forte and two HDN cabs , a 112 and a 210 for gigs .

 

[cheapbasslovin]

I have only tried a PJB product used, but it didn't blow me away. At the least, it didn't do enough for me to try to justify the price.

 

[Benj-jammin]

I tried Phil Jones this summer. And bergantino, and some other stuff.

the Phil jones C4 cabs are smaller than the Bergantino NXT112s, but the same weight. The Bergantino’s sound better and are louder in my opinion.

View attachment 4058819

In the end the NXT112s sounded better to me than the 212, I got 4 of them.

View attachment 4058822

Gee-zuz, man - now that's a beautiful set-up! Love those Bergie cabs......sweet!

 

[Killing Floor]

Phil Jones burned his physics book an never looked back.

I think just the opposite might be true. Phil Jones Bass hires engineers who studied and passed the same physics as everyone else. I think what they burned are the marketing playbooks, that's the secret. To the OP question, yes, there are plenty of very well engineered bass amps and speaker cabinets and combos that utilize the larger standard scales. But where PJB differentiates is the applied engineering to solve a different set of problems that aren't addressed by big cabs. I think if Mesa or Berg or GK or Ampeg wanted to invest the R&D into 4, 5, 7" speakers they could do it, there is nothing in a Briefcase or Double Four or 4X7 that pushes the limits of design, just nobody else is spending the cash to free their engineers and designers to address it. Likewise, I am sure if PJB needed to make 12", 15", etc. that would be just fine. The way I see it, they are trying to carve out a segment of the market and they are doing a nice job building loyalty. Good quality, good response and the tones they produce are what you expect. Only difference I've seen is they don't move air like my Mesa rig or my BBC rig or the fridges I grew up with but neither of them fits on my desk.

The portability, form factor, the smaller scale without compromising tone is the question they are trying to answer. Is a 4X7 as loud as a 2X12? Nope. But it doesn't have to be. The PJB gear I have played all sounds really true to the instrument and it's small and easy to tote.

 

[subtlestew]

I have a Bighead for headphone practice, a Double Four for small situations, and a Super Flightcase for gigs when I'm going to be going through PA and just need a stage monitor. All three are better than anything else I've used for each purpose. To quote from Phil Jones's website on the Super Flightcase: "the bass is incredibly rich and deep with authority and control never heard before in an amp this size." I agree. I don't know how they do it, but they seem, to me, to have debunked the idea that you can't get strong bass from a smaller driver.

Full disclosure: I still have my 4x10 (an Epifani that is the best-sounding cab I've ever heard, bar none) for when I really need to move air, because it's 1000 watts when paired with my Carvin B-2000, and that's hard to beat. Would some of the bigger PJB cabs (the ones with, say, a dozen drivers) match it? They might, but it would be very expensive to give that a try and, as they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I will say that, just last night, I brought the Double Four to a high school jazz band practice (I teach at a high school) and the BL, a bass player himself, commented afterward that he still can't believe how much great tone and volume I get out of my tiny little box. He's not wrong. The thing's a shoebox, and I could easily be heard over a drummer, a keyboardist, several other percussionists, and a bunch of horns.

 

[selowitch]

I sure do like Phil Jones stuff. My Double Four BG-75 got plenty of use this summer for outdoor performances. Such a great amp for bass but also guitar, keyboards, etc. I use my BigHead for bass lessons.

 

[Bruiser Stone]

PJB isn't the loudest, but it milks the most out of what is there.

 

[RedMoses]

Ive never played a larger Phil Jones rig but I have a PJB Bass cube (small combo), i have never heard a better sounding small combo, usually good sounding combos are reserved for larger show sizes. For practice or recording when you cant be too loud i dont think there is a better option on the market, at any price range.

 

[lug]

I think just the opposite might be true. Phil Jones Bass hires engineers who studied and passed the same physics as everyone else. I think what they burned are the marketing playbooks, that's the secret. To the OP question, yes, there are plenty of very well engineered bass amps and speaker cabinets and combos that utilize the larger standard scales. But where PJB differentiates is the applied engineering to solve a different set of problems that aren't addressed by big cabs. I think if Mesa or Berg or GK or Ampeg wanted to invest the R&D into 4, 5, 7" speakers they could do it, there is nothing in a Briefcase or Double Four or 4X7 that pushes the limits of design, just nobody else is spending the cash to free their engineers and designers to address it. Likewise, I am sure if PJB needed to make 12", 15", etc. that would be just fine. The way I see it, they are trying to carve out a segment of the market and they are doing a nice job building loyalty. Good quality, good response and the tones they produce are what you expect. Only difference I've seen is they don't move air like my Mesa rig or my BBC rig or the fridges I grew up with but neither of them fits on my desk.

The portability, form factor, the smaller scale without compromising tone is the question they are trying to answer. Is a 4X7 as loud as a 2X12? Nope. But it doesn't have to be. The PJB gear I have played all sounds really true to the instrument and it's small and easy to tote.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/564ycxgvp6.wav

On a serious note, Phil Jones was interviewed and said what initially drove his designs was to spread the load over more voice coils because he believes that's the limiting factor. It's just more expensive to do it that way.

 

[micguy]

Phil Jones doesn’t break any laws of Physics. To do decent low end for a bass guitar, you need compliant suspensions on the drivers so the driver parameters are appropriate to the task, and plenty of surface area and excursion. Phil gets his surface area from multiple drivers. He also gets a lot of his efficiency via mutual coupling from multiple drivers. This is not revolutionary in any way - SVT cabinets rely on the same principles - the 10’s they use are not very efficient used 1 at a time, but in an array of 16 drivers (the original 810’s were designed to be used in pairs) they work just fine.

 

[scuzzy]

I tried his stuff when it first came out with bass amps years ago, thankfully he's local.

It was the 6x5" combo. Weighed quite a bit, but it blew my mind. I played a 5-string Conklin groove tools through it. It was one of the most impressive experiences I've had. Possibly because it didn't seem like something so small with such small drivers could be so authoritative and articulate without farting out.

It was a very clean sounding combo though. Modern/transparent/etc. Would still love one.