Phil Lesh Appreciation Society: Enter the Philzone...

[spacebassed]

For some decades I've been wondering about the gloriously juicy noise Phil makes on American Beauty but I've found no reliable info on what bass/strngs he played. My guess: the Gibson EB3 strung with the 'telephone pole' strings (what could they have been?) and played with fingers, often. Anyone know more/ better/different?

[Edit] I've just checked http://dozin.com/phil/lesh.htm . Appears I've misremembered the chronology of Phil's basses. It was the stolen EB-O that was strung with telephone poles. So...?

I agree, that's one of the best bass tones ever committed to tape. There was a detailed breakdown of the way he was recorded on Crosby's record somewhere... I'll try to track it down, but it's pretty much what you'd expect for '70-'71 Phil, The Gibson EB-3 w/Hagstrom BiSonics, Pyramid strings, Fender Showmans, JBL D140f's, etc., no big surprises.

The bass with 'telephone poles for strings' that he mentions in his book is the EB-0 he owned (his first bass) before the Jazz Bass, not the later EB-3.

 

[spacebassed]

Ask and ye shall recieve...

I ran into the guy who produced David Crosby's first solo record, which Phil Lesh plays on much of. I asked him how he recorded the bass, which sounds pretty amazing. He said an SM57 on the amp, and then into a Urei 1176 compressor. I asked him if that was all he used. He said that was all he had! So, no studio trickery there.

And there's this: Invalid Link Removed

"For miking, Barncard used a relatively straightforward scheme: “On drums, I probably only used four mics — [Shure] 57s on the kick and the snare and [Sony] C37Ps as overheads, which also picked up the hi-hat and toms. I sometimes used [Neumann] 67s as overheads, too.” Garcia's and Crosby's guitars were captured by single 57s on each player's amp, but Lesh's beefy bass sound came from a combination of mics on two different amps — one large for more low end and a smaller one for the high-end part of his sound.”

 

[HCEarwicker]

Thanks, spacebassed. Great link.

I'd assumed the bass on the Crosby album to be the same as the bass on American Beauty - the short-scale EB3. And that the EB3 must put less tension on the Pyramids than the Starfire(?) - hence the profoundly expressive rattle and roll on Laughing. But according to that Mixonline link:

Though the master tape box for “Laughing” is dated “11/3/70,” Barncard suspects that the tune's basic track was actually cut in September '70 and that the later date is when it was completed. Whatever the case, that initial tracking session comprised Crosby and Garcia playing electric guitar (probably a hollow-body Gretsch and a Gibson SG, respectively), Lesh on his original Alembic bass and Kreutzmann on drums.

Is that the Alembicized Starfire or the first custom Alembic (too early?), I wonder. Whatever, if Stephen Barncard's memory/info is correct, it's not the EB3. Maybe the same for American Beauty?

 

[spacebassed]

So there you go, that amazing, elusive tone was probably recorded with a Shure 57...lol.

It was the EB-3... that was the closest thing Phil had to an "Alembic bass" at the time. It was the same bass used on American Beauty. The Starfire and the EB-3 were the same (short) scale.

 

[HCEarwicker]

It was the EB-3... that was the closest thing Phil had to an "Alembic bass" at the time. It was the same bass used on American Beauty.

So Barncard is mistaken when he says "...Lesh on his original Alembic bass"? Hmm...Not impossible. [Edit: Perhaps he means the EB3 after Alembic had a go at it?]

The Starfire and the EB-3 were the same (short) scale.

Yes indeed. Only, I've got a Starfire (albeit DeArmond) + Pyramids and I can't get it to rattle and buzz like Phil does - with the EB3? - on Laughing. There again, I'm not Phil, not a great fan of rattle, and it's not 1970

 

[spacebassed]

So Barncard is mistaken when he says "...Lesh on his original Alembic bass"? Hmm...Not impossible. [Edit: Perhaps he means the EB3 after Alembic had a go at it?]



Yes indeed. Only, I've got a Starfire (albeit DeArmond) + Pyramids and I can't get it to rattle and buzz like Phil does - with the EB3? - on Laughing. There again, I'm not Phil, not a great fan of rattle, and it's not 1970

Well the EB-3 was "Alembicized" ...and the Alembicized Starfire wouldn't be done with it's transformation until late '71 (IIRC). The first - and only - "real" Alembic was the Osage Orange (aka "Mission Control") didn't appear until '73 (again, IIRC).


It's not really "rattle," it's more of an inherent quality of those Hagstrom pickups. It really comes out when you dig in. You can hear it in Cassady's tone as well.

 

[kohntarkosz]

It was the EB-3... that was the closest thing Phil had to an "Alembic bass" at the time. It was the same bass used on American Beauty. The Starfire and the EB-3 were the same (short) scale.

I'm not sure I can add too much here. I think one of Alembic's earliest jobs was on David Crosby's Gibson Crest, which became an XII-string instrument thereafter.

I think the Godfather bass came later, and it predates the Osage Orange bass; the Godfather being a much modded Starfire used around the Europe '72 period whilst the Orange bass was used around the Dead Movie period.

I'm not sure of the timeline here, but it seems that Phil used either a bone-stock or minimally modified Starfire bass, then moved over to the EB-3 for a spell around 1970, then moved back onto the much modified Starfire. The EB-3 seems to have been kitted out with the second generation pickups that Guild fitted to Starfires (aka the sludgebucker), or they could be custom efforts of some sort.

 

[strappa]

I am a big fan of Phil's late 80s - early 90s tone
He had a cool Modulus but now plays a quantum
I have been looking to buy a quantum 5 to try and get some of that tone.

What pickups would be more like Phil's tone? The Barts or the EMGs?

 

[spacebassed]

I am a big fan of Phil's late 80s - early 90s tone
He had a cool Modulus but now plays a quantum
I have been looking to buy a quantum 5 to try and get some of that tone.

What pickups would be more like Phil's tone? The Barts or the EMGs?

Phil used the EMG's, He used DC's for a long time, then he was using the new "X-series" (not sure which specific model) in his latest Modulus (along with Q-Tuners in a second Quantum TBX).

 

[strappa]

Phil used the EMG's, He used DC's for a long time, then he was using the new "X-series" (not sure which specific model) in his latest Modulus (along with Q-Tuners in a second Quantum TBX).

Cool thanks!

I haven't seen too many Q5s w/ EMGs
seems most have Barts
I could always just replace the pups

 

[spacebassed]

Cool thanks!

I haven't seen too many Q5s w/ EMGs
seems most have Barts
I could always just replace the pups

There are tons of Quantums with EMG's out there. If it's the '92-on tone you're looking for, a Quantum w/EMG's will get you there. The Bart's aren't bad PU's though, a lot of ppl like them because they're less "brittle" sounding. A wood fretboard also warms up the tone, but there's a "thunk" that I like that's more prominent with the phenolic fretboards.

 

[HCEarwicker]

spacebassed:
It's not really "rattle," it's more of an inherent quality of those Hagstrom pickups. It really comes out when you dig in. You can hear it in Cassady's tone as well.

Casady, yep.

I just listened to this upload of Laughing again -

(I lost my copy of the album some time ago, but I'm guessing D, rather than Db, is the original key.)

So there is rattle/buzz - I insist! - but yes, the result of Phil digging in with a view to making the Universe tremble, rather than an indication of a difference in string tension between the EB3 and the Starfire. Maybe

Hey - What a f&*$%ing great track!!!

And thanks for the extra info, kohntarkosz.

 

[strappa]

There are tons of Quantums with EMG's out there. If it's the '92-on tone you're looking for, a Quantum w/EMG's will get you there. The Bart's aren't bad PU's though, a lot of ppl like them because they're less "brittle" sounding. A wood fretboard also warms up the tone, but there's a "thunk" that I like that's more prominent with the phenolic fretboards.

I love the 92 on tone
but what i like even better is the tone on Crimson White and Indigo
Probably because it was one of the most memorable shows i attended

the Q5s come up for sale often enough
guess i'll wait for one with the EMGs

 

[edwinhurwitz]

I'm not sure of the timeline here, but it seems that Phil used either a bone-stock or minimally modified Starfire bass, then moved over to the EB-3 for a spell around 1970, then moved back onto the much modified Starfire. The EB-3 seems to have been kitted out with the second generation pickups that Guild fitted to Starfires (aka the sludgebucker), or they could be custom efforts of some sort.

The EB-3 had Bisonics, and the thought is that they were wrapped in foil to increase the shielding by Alembic. You can see them pretty clearly on the pic below. They also had preamps and a stereo output, similar to the Starfire, ca. Live/Dead. Second generation Guild pickups hadn't quite happened yet, or maybe were just happening, but I had thought that the bionics were available through 1970.

Gotta say, that splitting out the pickups to their own output and amps does make a big difference. It's what I'm doing these days and engineers love it. It creates a big huge, clear sound. Perhaps it's one reason I've always preferred an active blend for my preamps.

 

[wisconsindead]

that gibson is the ****.

Those pickups looks slightly different... Are they modified bisonics?

 

[spacebassed]

The EB-3 had Bisonics, and the thought is that they were wrapped in foil to increase the shielding by Alembic. You can see them pretty clearly on the pic below. They also had preamps and a stereo output, similar to the Starfire, ca. Live/Dead. Second generation Guild pickups hadn't quite happened yet, or maybe were just happening, but I had thought that the bionics were available through 1970.

Yep, you see a lot of stock Guild's from '70 with one Hagstrom BiSonic and one Guild-bucker, there are also a few with one BiSonic and one other Hagstrom PU (I believe a mini-humbucker) that looked like the bridge PU on Gibson EB-3's.

For anyone who doesn't know, Phil's GD bass history goes something like this: Gibson EB-0 > 60's Fender Jazz Bass > '67 Guild Starfire > Alembicized Gibson EB-3 w/ Hagstrom BiSonics > Alembicized Guild Starfire > Alembic Osage Orange (Starfire was also used as a backup during this time) > Irwin bass > G&L (L2000e?)/60's Fender Jazz Bass > Modulus 6 strings (various) > Ken Smith > Modulus Quantum style basses

 

[spacebassed]

that gibson is the ****.

Those pickups looks slightly different... Are they modified bisonics?

Yes, Alembic added an additional magnet (like Hammon Dark Stars) and they were re-wound to Lo-impedance (with a buffer on each pickup) and were shielded with foil, as Edwin mentioned - that's why they look slightly different.

 

[HCEarwicker]

[...]
Phil's GD bass history goes something like this: Gibson EB-0 > 60's Fender Jazz Bass > '67 Guild Starfire > Alembicized Gibson EB-3 w/ Hagstrom BiSonics > Alembicized Guild Starfire > Alembic Osage Orange (Starfire was also used as a backup during this time) > Irwin bass > G&L (L2000e?)/60's Fender Jazz Bass > Modulus 6 strings (various) > Ken Smith > Modulus Quantum style basses

Thanks, spacebassed.

If anyone's got the info, time and inclination I, for one, would appreciate a list of the basses Phil used on the first few albums, album by album, up to and including Blues for Allah.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Thanks, spacebassed.

If anyone's got the info, time and inclination I, for one, would appreciate a list of the basses Phil used on the first few albums, album by album, up to and including Blues for Allah.

Off the top of my head:

1) Grateful Dead: Jazz bass
2) Anthem: probably Starfire, could be Jazz.
3) Aoxomoxoa: Starfire (and upright on Mountains)
4) Live/Dead: Starfire
5) AM Beauty; Workingman's; Skull****: EB3
6) Europe '72: Well, duh.
7) Wake of the Flood: Osage Orange
8) Mars Hotel: Osage Orange
9) Blues for Allah: Osage Orange

I might be wrong about some of it, but that's my best guess.

 

[spacebassed]

I might be wrong about some of it, but that's my best guess.

I think you're pretty much right on. There are only a couple I'm not totally sure about.

(Self-titled) - Jazz Bass?
Anthem of the Sun - I'm almost positive it was the Starfire.
Aoxomoxoa - Starfire
Live/Dead - Starfire or EB-3? (Edit: looks like the dates are too early for it to be the EB-3)
Workingman's Dead - EB-3
American Beauty - EB-3
Skull & Roses - EB-3
Europe '72 - Starfire (modded)
Wake of the Flood - Starfire (modded) or Alembic Osage Orange? (Not sure if Phil had the Alembic yet. I know at RFK 6/9/73 he was still using the Starfire. Also not sure exactly when in '73 WotF was recorded.)
From the Mars Hotel - Alembic Osage Orange
Blues for Allah - Alembic Osage Orange