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Phil Lesh Appreciation Society: Enter the Philzone...

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Fun interview link above. The DSO guys do it for me in terms of playing like Phil.

I couldn't disagree more. I haven't heard any of the new guy, but Kevin Rosen didn't come close to nailing Phil, IMO. And that's not a knock on Kevin, he's a good player, and he gets as close as anyone, but what Phil does is incredibly unique. I'm sure Kevin would be the first to concede that. Kevin does a good job of capturing 80's Phil, but Phil's playing wasn't particularly inspired a lot of time in the 80's - again, just my opinion. You can totally hear Phil's background in composition in his playing, the way he can color and accent the music - while still being supportive - is incredible. I also hear a lot of horn players in his playing. I think the way that Phil hangs on a root, playing in kind of a staccato, bat-bat-bat manner is derived from his trumpet playing. To me, it sounds very similar to horn stabs.

I've heard a few guys who could do a convincing Garcia, but never Phil. I've never really heard anyone do a truly convincing Bobby, either. Everyone in the Dead was so unique that their styles really wouldn't work in most other bands.

Btw, nsams73, where in WV are you?
 
It's a lot more fun to mimic his approach rather than his style. Of course, context is everything. If the rest of the band doesn't have the room for that approach, then it can sound wrong even if it is right.

Phil's approach is sort of a synthesis of jazz and Bach, with some other influences thrown in. If you go at it like that, you can end up in the neighborhood. It's interesting because rock players often don't really have a handle on what's going on with his playing, but jazz players get it. Spend some time playing walking bass lines and it makes a lot more sense. It's no surprise that in the 70s Phil cited Scott LaFaro as an influence. Check him out with Bill Evans. He connects the chords, fulfilling a lot of the traditional jazz bass roles, but also is an equal voice in how the ensemble is arranged. But, if the other players aren't listening, it can sound like just a lot of noodling.

Same with Bobby. I know some great jazz guitar players who would kill playing the Bobby parts, but they'd never want to do it. They've got those McCoy voicings down, along with being able to cop soul horn parts and inner voice leadings. Again, it's a thing that comes up all the time in jazz but a lot of rock players might not even know all the notes they are playing and how they can lead from chord to chord.

Dammit Edwin, get out of my head...lol.

I agree completely about jazz players being the ones who could do it, but most aren't particularly interested. That's why I tend to prefer guys like Herring and Scofield in Phil's band. They "get it." Most of the guys interested in playing Grateful Dead music have a very rudimentary knowledge of theory - myself included - so they're basically just "faking it." This really shows in their improv.

I also agree that his approach is what i learn the most from. I'm not particularly interested in playing exactly like Phil (like I said, I think that it works very well in the Dead, but probably not in most more conventional bands), but I love incorporating some little nuggets of his into my own playing. Same with Jamerson, Aston Barrett, etc. - and that's the way it should be, IMO.

Phil has said that his jumping between registers is something he got directly from LaFaro.
 
I couldn't disagree more. I haven't heard any of the new guy, but Kevin Rosen didn't come close to nailing Phil, IMO. And that's not a knock on Kevin, he's a good player, and he gets as close as anyone, but what Phil does is incredibly unique. I'm sure Kevin would be the first to concede that. Kevin does a good job of capturing 80's Phil, but Phil's playing wasn't particularly inspired a lot of time in the 80's - again, just my opinion. You can totally hear Phil's background in composition in his playing, the way he can color and accent the music - while still being supportive - is incredible. I also hear a lot of horn players in his playing. I think the way that Phil hangs on a root, playing in kind of a staccato, bat-bat-bat manner is derived from his trumpet playing. To me, it sounds very similar to horn stabs.

It's an eternal frustration that most people I've heard doing this music (and played with) are focused on the 80s. That's when I kind of checked out because it was clear that the band had ossified into roles that just didn't seem as inspired as what had come before.

I've heard a few guys who could do a convincing Garcia, but never Phil. I've never really heard anyone do a truly convincing Bobby, either. Everyone in the Dead was so unique that their styles really wouldn't work in most other bands.

I have. Arthur Lee Land sat in with my band and killed it. Sounded amazing. I know that Mitchell Long could nail it if he wanted to. You've probably never heard of them, but there it is.

If anybody here is in Colorado and wants to check out a Shakedown Street show, let me know. It would be my pleasure to put you on the guest list. We don't always get that close, but it's fun.
 
the majority of eastcoast madame tussaud's wax-museum Dead bands, DSO included, have "phil guys" who mimic his gear and who drop in the "wish i was a headlight... BWAAAANGG!! YAY!!!" tropes, but who never fully get Phil's composer's dna or his lenny lasher/scott lafaro-influenced off-accented phrasing or his dire churning circa-'71 attitude... it's all nice & safe, proffers zero musical risk, markets well, fills rooms, and is so very, very predictable. snoozy wallpaper to "shake yer bones"® to. zzZZZZzzzzzzz.
this is not a personal attack on any player. they are all competent. from someone who's been involved in it all for a few decades, i've observed that it's what the scene's become- and i do believe jerry would have a head-shaking chuckle over the calcified state of dead cover-band music across the country, as if to say in his great way, "HEY mannnn, DO somethin' with it!! har har har!!". there's an almost universal comforming template in the current crop of "tribute" band's approach to the dead's specific material (i'm not discussing bands that perform their own stuff, or freeform jam/groove bands, only dead "tribute" bands).

edwin- here's hoping the flame burns more brightly out there in the mountains! i'm sure you're bringing some good psychic weight to the music.
 
thanks for the help spacebassed.

I will agree that I've never been too impressed with any of the phil players in dso. Good bassists but just not phil.

I will also agree that none of them seem intrigued in attempting phils early style of playing. id love to hear a bassist from dso actually sound like phil from 1970-1974 for a change.

I do however think Rob (as Bob) from dso is stellar. I think hes by far the best of the bunch. Hes the one I can clearly tells who changes their playing style to the years, well mostly.
 
the majority of eastcoast madame tussaud's wax-museum Dead bands, DSO included, have "phil guys" who mimic his gear and who drop in the "wish i was a headlight... BWAAAANGG!! YAY!!!" tropes, but who never fully get Phil's composer's dna or his lenny lasher/scott lafaro-influenced off-accented phrasing or his dire churning circa-'71 attitude... it's all nice & safe, proffers zero musical risk, markets well, fills rooms, and is so very, very predictable. snoozy wallpaper to "shake yer bones"® to. zzZZZZzzzzzzz.
this is not a personal attack on any player. they are all competent. from someone who's been involved in it all for a few decades, i've observed that it's what the scene's become- and i do believe jerry would have a head-shaking chuckle over the calcified state of dead cover-band music across the country, as if to say in his great way, "HEY mannnn, DO somethin' with it!! har har har!!". there's an almost universal comforming template in the current crop of "tribute" band's approach to the dead's specific material (i'm not discussing bands that perform their own stuff, or freeform jam/groove bands, only dead "tribute" bands).

edwin- here's hoping the flame burns more brightly out there in the mountains! i'm sure you're bringing some good psychic weight to the music.

I agree completely Joe. It's having the opinion of guys like you and Edwin that prompted me to create this club. I truly want to see this music move forward, particularly, Phil's approach and sound. There's a way to be a competent, impressive bass player without being a "shred monkey" - I wish more guys outside of the jazz world understood that.

I also agree about Garcia... he would have been mortified that a band like DSO exists. And by all the guys who try to mimic him note for note. He always respected guys like Kimock who took something from him and then did their own thing with it. That being said, I'm glad at least someone, somewhere is doing something with this music. It deserves to be played.

Phil's '71 sound is a force of nature! If Phil would've gotten that sound with Neil Young and his 5E3 Tweed Deluxe tone in the same room, at the same time, I'm pretty sure the universe would've imploded. :D
 
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awesome, space. it's an honor to be mentioned as having a strong interest in seeing the scene evolve. thanks.

and yeah, jerry dug kimock, and steve is probably about the best post-jerry melodic player out there. tons of chops AND subtlety AND an inner burn, which is exactly what jerry had.

and it's not that these bands can't play, that's not it at all... it's that they choose to put self-imposed electric fences around a music that was forged for decades like Excalibur from the gnostic flames of psychedelia, burnished through jazz-like epic improvs, given twang and heart through americana, funkified and fortified with personal loss and great depth.... and they scaredy-cat it all into a bourgeoise treacly 'product' that, as befitting this era, is fkkin' TERRIFIED of rough edges...

but on the other hand, to be respectful, i have no real right to discount anyone's nirvana moments. there are so few of 'em in life! and if people like it all, that's fine. eastcoast dead tribute bands are mostly empty calories but if that's what people are ok with fueling themselves on, so be it!
 
thanks for the help spacebassed.

I will agree that I've never been too impressed with any of the phil players in dso. Good bassists but just not phil.

I will also agree that none of them seem intrigued in attempting phils early style of playing. id love to hear a bassist from dso actually sound like phil from 1970-1974 for a change.

I do however think Rob (as Bob) from dso is stellar. I think hes by far the best of the bunch. Hes the one I can clearly tells who changes their playing style to the years, well mostly.
From what I have heard from many folks, the newest member and bass player of DSO, Skip Vangelas, is the best they have had to date and really knows the language and music vocabulary of the Grateful Dead quite well. Plays an Alembic and a modified Guild Starfire as well. I heard him on a recording doing Morning Dew and it was really nice, captured Phil really spot on.
For me playing this music is like a jazz approach, all about language and vocabulary. It has to flow organically and naturally. Definitely not a cut and paste type of playing. I dig Edwin's reference to Scott Lafaro and Bill Evans....
 
I'm in Buckhannon, WV. I was playing along on keyboard last night with Eyes of the World and right with the "sometimes we ride on your horses" line, Phil played a little run that sounded exactly like horse hooves in perfect rhythm with the song. What are some thoughts on the Eyes jam section? It's not always the same changes as the intro. I used to think I was playing a lot of the F# minor scale on bass (though it should probably be more C# minor). Now that I'm trying some keyboard, I really like the G# minor chord over the E major 7.
 
From what I have heard from many folks, the newest member and bass player of DSO, Skip Vangelas, is the best they have had to date and really knows the language and music vocabulary of the Grateful Dead quite well. Plays an Alembic and a modified Guild Starfire as well. I heard him on a recording doing Morning Dew and it was really nice, captured Phil really spot on.
For me playing this music is like a jazz approach, all about language and vocabulary. It has to flow organically and naturally. Definitely not a cut and paste type of playing. I dig Edwin's reference to Scott Lafaro and Bill Evans....

Well thats good the hear as I will get my phil (pun intended) with the three madison, chicago and milwaukee dso shows.
 
As someone who has heard Edwin multiple times, I have to say that he is the best I have heard expressing Phil. I agree about Kevin Rosin, but keep in mind that DSO is a corporate entity that has a product to sell, and as such cannot tolerate true improvisational expression on stage. As those of us who saw the Grateful Dead are aware, it didn't always work, and the criticism that would be leveled at DSO would be by mostly people who don't "get it". I always said DSO was a great experience - if you never saw the Grateful Dead. I spent ten years playing almost nothing but music influenced by Phil. I searched out Luciano Berio, Charles Ives, and Karlheinz Stockhausen, which led me to Kurt Weil, Arthur Shoenberg, Martin Feldman, and, eventually, John Cage. When I heard "Four Walls", I got it. The bass doesn't have to be the floor of the music, with the drums. No one has to be on the one , although everyone has to know where it is, and essentially the fact that every one is the "floor" for everyone else to play. I never tried to BE Phil Lesh, (he does that!) because then you lose twice; you can't be him, and you're not being yourself. But I love his approach to music. Scott Lafaro and Bill Evans trio had the same approach. I also encountered Neils Henning-Orsted Pedersen with Dizzie Gillespie on "Live At Montrieux", which blew me away, also, and became a favorite of mine.

To hear an approach to "Eyes Of The World", listen to my post on page 33 of this thread. That is me playing bass, at an open mike, and interpreting the song with the approach Phil would have possibly given in 1974. Since I did not know and trust the other musicians, who had just let me down on the previous song, I was definitely listening, on the wire, so to speak. I have consistently found it hard to find other musicians who "get it'. and like the music, and want to play it. When I lived in Colorado, Edwin, I WANTED your job!! Dead cover bands in Virginia just want to box the music and make the image without the substance. Superficially they sound great, ala DSO, but there is no risk, no high highs (or low lows), and that to me stagnates the music. When I met Phil in Philadelphia (and got him to sign my bass), we talked about music, and when I told him how much I liked his playing, and why, he said, "You get it! You get it!!". My head puffed up at least double. That, a complement when I lived in Golden that I reminded the guitar player of that Shakedown Street bass player, and a comment, not to me, but filtered to me, by Steve Forbert's bass player that if he were a guitar player, he would want me for a bass player, are my musical career highs; recognition that is sincere, unsolicited, and appreciative of my efforts.

Joe Vegas, you are in an exceptional class. I have your CDs, and they were also helpful to me, but also, I just loved hearing that approach.

I guess everyone has to toot their own horn, occasionally!
 
I KNEW I forgot something! I disagree about Phil's '80s playing. He had just moved to six-string, and I think was excited by the different approach that makes you take to the music. Although the band hit a slump, creatively ("Go To Heaven"?), I think Phil personally, with a new family, a new bass, and a new life, essentially, was on fire as much as he was able to be. A collective approach means you are not really in control of where you go, and others in the band had their issues. I do agree that his four-string playing seemed to be more alive, more inventive, but the '80s weren't any less so; just different. 2 cents, please.
 
I'd like to join your club, please.

For a brief couple of months I played bass with Cosmic Charlies, a (THE?) UK Dead tribute band.

Here's a clip of me doing my version of the Phil thing. Was my first gig. Me on first 2 numbers only, Let it Rock and Shakedown Street. Feel free to skip Let it Rock. But Shakedown - about 1/5 way in - is not half bad, I reckon...has its moments ;-))

Link Removed

It's a decent recording but levels are low - turn it up! 'Specially the bass!!!
 
I think you can "get it" and still like DSO. I also saw several Grateful Dead shows, both good and bad. I've heard Phil's influences, but I think this discussion could be even more valuable with more specifics. I realize we don't want to say tabs necessarily when the approach is to play songs differently every time, but we can tab phrases and such that are common or essential. There's not much of that available online and I think it helps to spread the music and keep it alive. Let's say this helps a player like me whose ear is still developing after starting to play music as an adult rather than at a younger age.
 
I think you can "get it" and still like DSO. I also saw several Grateful Dead shows, both good and bad. I've heard Phil's influences, but I think this discussion could be even more valuable with more specifics. I realize we don't want to say tabs necessarily when the approach is to play songs differently every time, but we can tab phrases and such that are common or essential. There's not much of that available online and I think it helps to spread the music and keep it alive. Let's say this helps a player like me whose ear is still developing after starting to play music as an adult rather than at a younger age.

I agree, there's really not much in the way of tabs for Phil's stuff... and most of what is out there is wrong. Even the "official" transcriptions out there are pretty useless, unless you're trying to play the songs solo on piano. I'm not afraid to admit that tabs helped me a lot when I was younger and still developing my ear. They can also be handy as a reference to quickly see if you're playing something right. It's only when you use them as a crutch or when you think "Why should I learn to read music, I've already got tabs" that it becomes a problem. The key is to not just "recite" the tabs, but look at what the notes are and what their function is.

Earwicker, listening to that Shakedown, it sounds like you've got a pretty solid grasp on what Phil's doing. Definitely much more so than the next guy! Oy! :hmm:
 
I think you can "get it" and still like DSO. I also saw several Grateful Dead shows, both good and bad. I've heard Phil's influences, but I think this discussion could be even more valuable with more specifics. I realize we don't want to say tabs necessarily when the approach is to play songs differently every time, but we can tab phrases and such that are common or essential. There's not much of that available online and I think it helps to spread the music and keep it alive. Let's say this helps a player like me whose ear is still developing after starting to play music as an adult rather than at a younger age.

I think this is a good idea, but I would greatly discourage the use of tabs. It's an inaccurate method of notation. Anyone who really wants to get it would be well advised to learn standard notation, both clefs. Phil (and the other GD guys) are all well versed in standard notation and spent a lot of time studying various kinds of music. With tabs, you are limited to the variation of instrument notated. With standard notation, you have the world of music right on your music stand. As Spacebassed said "The key is to not just "recite" the tabs, but look at what the notes are and what their function is." It's much harder to analyze function and/or transpose, etc., with a tab than it is standard notation.

Tabs also don't address one of the big aspects of Phil's playing: rhythm. Learning to read and notate rhythms is a huge milestone in any player's life, as it can unlock some deep understanding of just what is going on. I was playing for years before I learned to read (at least for bass. I started reading music when I was 3 or so). Learning what the rhythms I had played for years looked like on the page was hugely ear opening.

So, for a start, as a background, I would begin to hack away at the Bach cello suites for two reasons: 1) It's a great piece of music that every bass player should work on throughout their life time and 2) Bach writes great melodic bass lines.

I would also look for Paul Chambers transcriptions and Jimmy Garrison transcriptions. Or better yet, transcribe them yourself. Both of them were hugely influential in how bass players approached modal playing.

Then move on to LaFaro and others.

I think the point is that particular phrases aren't as important as learning the approach and the approach requires at least a moderate understanding of and experience with jazz and classical harmony. Phil's note choices and phrasing become, if not obvious, at least pretty clear once you have a working knowledge of this stuff. Lessons can be very helpful. I studied theory and its application to bass with a jazz guitarist in Boston who had studied with Mick Goodrick and Charlie Banacos. I learned a huge amount in that process and pretty much all of it was applicable to being able to play Phil lines. (I do teach his method, but I guess you'd have to be in Colorado. Of course, there's always Skype….).

So, perhaps if people have specific things they want to learn, they could bring them up and we could all submit what we think might be the "reality" and compare notes.


Also, thanks for the kudos. I have to admit, it was a strange journey to get here. I turned down an offer to join DSO more than 10 years ago, swearing I'd never play in a cover band, let alone a GD cover. I was a lot more interested in original funk, jazz, and just plain weird experimental music and I felt like I'd rather work a day job than play in a cover band. However, when I started law school in 2009 it seemed like a good way to keep my hand in the game without having to rehearse a lot and a little extra income didn't hurt. One of the things I feared has come true, which is that now I'm somewhat typecast as something which only reflects about 10% of my musical reality. But it's also been a lot of fun. I get to go back and scratch an itch I had 30 years ago.
 
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