I've got that record... I never knew that the backing band was G.A.T.!
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Phil Lesh Appreciation Society: Enter the Philzone...
- Thread starter spacebassed
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I've got that record... I never knew that the backing band was G.A.T.!
Any thoughts on tossing one of these curtis novak pickups into an epiphone eb3.
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figured it might not be a bad start for around $500
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figured it might not be a bad start for around $500
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
I don't know if it will give you the Phil EB3 sound as this one is a long scale. It makes a pretty big difference.
Thanks for the reply, I've actually read from some people that the shorter scale basses lose some of their growl, which I am after to a degree. Part of lookin at these epiphones is that they are cheaper than a guild be a large degree and the Novak pickup is $60-70 cheaper than the guild pickup.
I'm really just looking for a decent bass to get started which is geared towards phil sounding, doesnt have to be perfect. I cant stand my squire anymore so need something that gets me on the right pathway which is under $700 total (no guild). I'd prefer a longer scale neck even though I play a short scale now. 2-3 more frets would be nice to have if I am to stick with a 4 string bass.
Any advice for a broke man is welcome.
If your budget is $700 you can buy a new Jack Casady signature bass for around that price. Cheaper used. The pickup in it is actually pretty cool and capable of a lot of nice tones. It is a popular bass to mod by replacing the stock pickup with a Darkstar pickup. There were a couple of previous posts about the Casady bass with a DS pickup in this thread, the ex-bass player for DSO had one... do a search in this thread for Casady.
I get a convincing Phil tone out of my stock Epiphone EB-3 with a pick. With some kind of Dark Star variant pickups it should be golden. It won't be exact as Edwin pointed out cause of the long scale thing but, none of those cats (Phil, Jack) play short scales anymore. But that's just me
The Epiphone Cassady is a long scale instrument too, fwiw. Long scale instruments do some things better and short scale instruments do some things better, so it's just a matter of personal taste. It's been my experience that the biggest differences are that the G string on a short scale will have a fatter fundamental and on a long scale the E string will have more definition/punch. That being said Curtis is a great guy and makes excellent pickups, I'm sure you'd be happy with one. I'd use one of these though: Invalid Link Removed
Fred Hammon actually used to advise against swapping the Cassady's electronics out for a Dark Star, although he did occasionally do it.
Check eBay, there have been some "project" Gibson EB-3's that have gone quite cheap the past several months.
I have a Dearmond Starfire that has been modded with a passive high pass filter, a varitone, and a master volume (along with the individual volumes and 3 way switch just like the Guilds) that will be going on the market soon.
Fred Hammon actually used to advise against swapping the Cassady's electronics out for a Dark Star, although he did occasionally do it.
Check eBay, there have been some "project" Gibson EB-3's that have gone quite cheap the past several months.
I have a Dearmond Starfire that has been modded with a passive high pass filter, a varitone, and a master volume (along with the individual volumes and 3 way switch just like the Guilds) that will be going on the market soon.
Short scale and Pyramid Flatwound strings (and the modified bisonic pickups) were a big part of Lesh's ( and Jack's) sound. Yes, the E string is floppy, but as you go up the neck, especially on the D and G strings, the notes swell and with right hand technique you get a tone that the JC bass or long scale EB3 instruments don't capture. Casady was adamant that his technique and approach in many Airplane songs were the result of note selection up the neck, and of course with the big rigs they used onstage the bottom notes took care of themselves.
Most importantly, it is not necessarily the bass, but the approach that gets you Phil tone. He plays around the root in the classic tension relief style, and then resolves it. I strongly recommend anyone trying to go there to read Phil's book "Searching for the Sound" where he goes into depth his early bass playing and making notes fit into a band setting to achieve his sound
Most importantly, it is not necessarily the bass, but the approach that gets you Phil tone. He plays around the root in the classic tension relief style, and then resolves it. I strongly recommend anyone trying to go there to read Phil's book "Searching for the Sound" where he goes into depth his early bass playing and making notes fit into a band setting to achieve his sound
Will they be that much different? And is it ok to take this DS BS pickup and use it on an eb3. I figured it wasnt and that was why he made a dark star pick up for eb3s?
Having played a Hofner Violin bass (strung with Pyramid flats as stock), and now playing a DeArmond Starfire with Pyramids I couldn't agree more.
The pickups on my DeArmond are the stock DeArmond Goldtones, and the tones available get me close enough to the Europe 72 sounds that I love to keep me very happy. And the main reason is the strings, for sure...and of course the way you pick or pluck em. A pair of Dark Stars or similar - if I could find and afford them - might be nice, but I only have to turn up my SWR amp a tad more than I would with Darkstars, tweak a little and I'm there.
The short scale definitely contributes to the plump, juicy, woody(?!) tone, but if you'd rather play a long scale bass all is not lost - you don't wanna be a carbon copy, right? You do??? Can't be done, I'm afraid.
So if you're going for the early Lesh sound you gotta get some Pyramid flats. And that's that. ...Arguably
That is exactly what he made those pickups for, but this was before he invested in the tooling to make the BiSonic/Dark Star clone. They're internally the same structure, so they should sound the same, but the BS-DS has the different pole adjustment mechanism (are the poles on the EB-BS even adjustable?) and it just looks so much cooler!
They will both drop into an EB3 route without any modification.I agree that technique trumps gear in getting Phil's sound, Phil still sounds like Phil when he's playing a 34" scale. Phil and Jack still sounded like themselves playing their Jazz basses (before they went to the Starfires). But a short scale definitely makes it easier. Strings are critical in copping Phil's tone - you'll never get it with rounds, IMO. So switching to a groundwound (Ken Smith Slicks) or flatwound (Pyramids or even TI's) will be the biggest and cheapest step in the right direction. Pyramids definitely have that sound, but they are a unique feeling set of strings. I've always used TI's (or D'Addario Chromes in a pinch), but some folks don't like TI's because of the tension. It's all subjective. If you are going to use a long scale instrument, good palm muting technique will go a long way if you still feel you need to fatten things up (especially on the high strings). I can get a passable Phil tone with my Jazz Bass (series/parallel mod) strung with Ken Smith Slicks. So, getting that tone is easier with a short scale, but there are other options. Just like Jamerson's tone - can you get it without a B15? Absolutely. But if you plug into a B15 it's just inherently there.
For someone looking to get that early Phil sound as cheaply as possible, I have a recommendation: A used Gretsch Electromatic Jet Jr. modded with one of Curtis' BS-DS pickups. These basses are short scale instruments with a single pickup in the sweet spot (which would be my preference if I was going to go with a single PU instrument). They are a single cut body (basically a Les Paul Jr.) and you can pick them up used for $125-$150. You'd have to enlarge the route to fit the pickup, but you'd still come in at the $400-$500 range. For the record, the stock pickup isn't bad at all, but it's not a BiSonic/Dark Star.
I don't know if Curtis has released it officially, but he's mentioned it on here so I doubt if he'd mind me repeating it... He's making his BS-DS with an optional tap in the coil that will give you the resistance of both the original Hagstrom BiSonic and the Dark Star, so that would be an option to consider to give you some tonal variation on a single PU instrument.
I don't know if Curtis has released it officially, but he's mentioned it on here so I doubt if he'd mind me repeating it... He's making his BS-DS with an optional tap in the coil that will give you the resistance of both the original Hagstrom BiSonic and the Dark Star, so that would be an option to consider to give you some tonal variation on a single PU instrument.
Do you use or have you used these basses? Any thoughts on the junior jet 2?
Finally, is there a way to be certain that the BSDS pickup will work fine on this guitar or other guitars for that matter? I really don't know very much about pickups so I want to make sure that what I invest in will work out fine.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
The pickup will work fine, it's just a question of getting it on there and wired up. But, in terms of bang for the buck, I think the right strings are more important than the right pickup.
I'm currently using d'addario chrome flats. I really just need a new set up regardless of what sound I am looking for. Just trying to combine the need for a new set up, desire for phils sound within the budget.
I rediscovered Phil through a new Band I'm in that does
about 10 Dead tunes.
Phil is the king of bass noodling. Nobody gets from point A to B
like Phil.
Growing up I was more into Jack Bruce, Berry Oakley and John Paul Jones..
But Phil is in that club for sure. Great stuff.
I have a buddy who owns one... my bass shorted out right before an acoustic duo gig, so I borrowed his Gretsch. I was really impressed with it for the price ($175 new, on sale). The Jet Jr. II is the two PU version of the same bass (didn't even know that made one), It looks to only have a volume, tone, and a switch... so, if it was mine I'd probably mod it to allow better blending of the PU's. You probably wouldn't find them as cheap used (I've seen the single PU version sell for under $100 on eBay), but IMO, it'd be a better choice since I do a lot of blending between pickups to get the Phil vibe. If i was going to install the BS-DS I'd do it in the neck position and enlarge the route towards the neck. If you have a Guitar Center nearby, drop in and give one a whirl.
The BS-DS comes in two different spacing, so just be sure to order the right one for whichever bass you use.
You got that right!
But I disagree that it's "noodling" - it may be "unconventional" in the context of a rock band, but there's very sound theory backing everything he does. That 2000 Other Ones tour with Alphonso Johnson (a great player) in the bass spot was a huge eye opener for me, that music just does not sound the same without Phil.
Phil is the only bass player where I've never heard anyone be able to convincingly mimic his style.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
It's a lot more fun to mimic his approach rather than his style. Of course, context is everything. If the rest of the band doesn't have the room for that approach, then it can sound wrong even if it is right.
Phil's approach is sort of a synthesis of jazz and Bach, with some other influences thrown in. If you go at it like that, you can end up in the neighborhood. It's interesting because rock players often don't really have a handle on what's going on with his playing, but jazz players get it. Spend some time playing walking bass lines and it makes a lot more sense. It's no surprise that in the 70s Phil cited Scott LaFaro as an influence. Check him out with Bill Evans. He connects the chords, fulfilling a lot of the traditional jazz bass roles, but also is an equal voice in how the ensemble is arranged. But, if the other players aren't listening, it can sound like just a lot of noodling.
Same with Bobby. I know some great jazz guitar players who would kill playing the Bobby parts, but they'd never want to do it. They've got those McCoy voicings down, along with being able to cop soul horn parts and inner voice leadings. Again, it's a thing that comes up all the time in jazz but a lot of rock players might not even know all the notes they are playing and how they can lead from chord to chord.
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