It's true: everyone gets to vent. But I also believe that you have to respect the poster, but not necessarily his or her myopic opinions.
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Phrases bassists should stop using immediately
- Thread starter JimmyM
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It's true: everyone gets to vent. But I also believe that you have to respect the poster, but not necessarily his or her myopic opinions.
- Apr 1, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Who says you get a choice?
Ok, by that I mean why do groove and melody get to be separate? Great musicians (not just bass players) play melodically and with great groove.
Oh, and Jimmy - yeah I groove when playing classical (what little I've done) and dixieland. I sort of suck at odd meters, so I'm not going to say much for the rest of your question.
He has gotten from this thread exactly what he put into it. Actually, none of the other posters have been as insulting and threatening has he was in his original post.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Whew! I'm sure glad you didn't make any pronouncements about angry bassists with questionable social skills and impulse-control issues!I'm almost afraid to ask, but what prompted you to start this thread?
That's pretty much how I feel. I think if JimmyM was a little more tactful and less threatening he would have gotten a much better responds. I hate to think that I should be wearing a cup around him just in case one of those phases slipped out in his presents. A rant is one thing, but there didn't seem to be much for debate if I'm going to be told to "get bent" if I happen to disagree.
Okay, I'm done with that. Here is what I feel about your original topic.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with those phases, but it really depends on the situation and why they are being said. (Excluding the pick phrase. You were dead on with that one.) For me the only time I have heard someone use a particular phase such as those are band leaders or music writers trying to dictate what they want. Anything else is usually someone referring to a specific style of playing. As narrow minded as it sounds it's simply a catch phrase.
I think that your description of these phases are just as narrow minded though.
here's how I feel:
The bass has to lock in with the drummer
First, the bass doesn't "have to" so we agree on that, but to me locking in with the drummer simply means to pay attention to his bass/snare pattern. Nothing more. It does not have anything to do with feel, playing behind or ahead of the beat.
It's all about the groove
Well, yes it is. To me "groove" is the same thing as feel. The only difference is you wont hear a conductor tell you to "groove it" however he will tell you to play with more feel. Every music has a feel or groove. Groove is just a word. Any two notes played in succession has a groove.
Overplaying is bad
Yes it is. If you are playing too much and it's not fitting it's overplaying. If you are playing a lot of notes and it working it's not overplaying. Of course this one is highly suggestive to the musical situation at hand.
I think you should be as open minded with your catch phases as you are with your music. It's all just words.
I think that a lot of these generalizations stem from the things that teachers tell students over and over again, and I think that in the context of brand new and young players, they do hold true. So maybe, these clichés are true for all players in the beginning, and you have to learn when they no longer apply to you because you've advanced beyond the ranks of beginner.
One example - in my beginning method book I read that strictly alternating the index and middle fingers on my right (strumming) hand and following the "finger per fret" rule with left (fretting) hand would serve me well for about 95% of my playing. I practiced those things. I now know when I want to break from these guideline, but they do work for most of my playing. Obviously, not all.
As above, I think this one holds true in the beginning and you have to know when it no longer applies to you. Just because you are advanced beyond this point doesn't necessarily mean that people should stop saying it to the kids and newbie's. Try teaching an 11 year old kid how to play bass with a drummer. You'll be saying "the bass has to lock with the drummer" in no time. I think that as a bass player, first you have to learn to play a bass line locking with the drummer, and then you can learn when and how to do "other things".
As others have pointed out, your opinion in based in the idea that metal bass lines and walking lines in jazz don't groove. I disagree, and I say that they are just different types of grooves. It depends on your definition. Based on my definition of "groove" which is pretty broad and allows for many different types of groove, I say yes - the bass must always groove. To me "groove" pretty much means playing something interesting, appropriate, and in time.
I say that overplaying IS bad. Guys like Jaco, and Stanley Clark, and Victor Wooten who have the serious chops and are playing music which allows them to show off those chops are not over playing. They are playing appropriately for the music that they are playing. In your example of recording with your friend - that's not over playing because the song writer was asking you to play more aggressively and it sounds like you have the chops to pull it off. Just because somebody is playing more, doesn't mean that they are over playing. Now if you were forcing some Vic Wooten double thumb into every classic rock song that your cover band plays, you would probably be over playing.
One example - in my beginning method book I read that strictly alternating the index and middle fingers on my right (strumming) hand and following the "finger per fret" rule with left (fretting) hand would serve me well for about 95% of my playing. I practiced those things. I now know when I want to break from these guideline, but they do work for most of my playing. Obviously, not all.
As above, I think this one holds true in the beginning and you have to know when it no longer applies to you. Just because you are advanced beyond this point doesn't necessarily mean that people should stop saying it to the kids and newbie's. Try teaching an 11 year old kid how to play bass with a drummer. You'll be saying "the bass has to lock with the drummer" in no time. I think that as a bass player, first you have to learn to play a bass line locking with the drummer, and then you can learn when and how to do "other things".
As others have pointed out, your opinion in based in the idea that metal bass lines and walking lines in jazz don't groove. I disagree, and I say that they are just different types of grooves. It depends on your definition. Based on my definition of "groove" which is pretty broad and allows for many different types of groove, I say yes - the bass must always groove. To me "groove" pretty much means playing something interesting, appropriate, and in time.
I say that overplaying IS bad. Guys like Jaco, and Stanley Clark, and Victor Wooten who have the serious chops and are playing music which allows them to show off those chops are not over playing. They are playing appropriately for the music that they are playing. In your example of recording with your friend - that's not over playing because the song writer was asking you to play more aggressively and it sounds like you have the chops to pull it off. Just because somebody is playing more, doesn't mean that they are over playing. Now if you were forcing some Vic Wooten double thumb into every classic rock song that your cover band plays, you would probably be over playing.
I thought we were all ranting about our bass problems.
I don't listen to anybody. When I hear "use a pick" I use my fingers. It could lead to my downfall but at least I'm having fun
I do think the original poster made a few valid points, though the tone was overly combative, as others have pointed out.
I can't believe people still argue about picks, versus finger playing. Anything wrong with being able to play using both forms???
I can't believe people still argue about picks, versus finger playing. Anything wrong with being able to play using both forms???
Actually, after having read this thread in it's entirety, I agree with most of the original post, though some of it is meaningless out of context. So read the following with a little joviality, alright?
You've got other issues anyway, if something as simple as an overused phrase brings you to anger. Perhaps you feel you don't get taken seriously enough as a bass player by those you wish would. Maybe because you feel that one shouldn't settle for other's imposed limitations, you are a tad bit touchy when anyone says anything that implies you should limit yourself. There is something underlying your rant besides the phrases themselves.
At any rate, you take yourself, and these phrases way too seriously.
Lock in with the drummer? No way! When you play, you don't want to "lock in" with anyone. In fact, the next time you play out with a band, play a completely different song just to prove your point!
It's not about the groove at all. Nobody wants to feel music, they just want to watch you musically masturbate...especially the people you play with.
Overplaying isn't bad. Every musician in the band should overplay. Wouldn't it be cool if we all just started a new trend where all the musicians soloed over the top of each other, on every song, all night long? Way too cool.
Now before you go off on a tantrum, take a deep breath and relax. Then, lock in with your drummer, get in the groove...and for God's sake don't overplay!
You've got other issues anyway, if something as simple as an overused phrase brings you to anger. Perhaps you feel you don't get taken seriously enough as a bass player by those you wish would. Maybe because you feel that one shouldn't settle for other's imposed limitations, you are a tad bit touchy when anyone says anything that implies you should limit yourself. There is something underlying your rant besides the phrases themselves.
At any rate, you take yourself, and these phrases way too seriously.
Lock in with the drummer? No way! When you play, you don't want to "lock in" with anyone. In fact, the next time you play out with a band, play a completely different song just to prove your point!
It's not about the groove at all. Nobody wants to feel music, they just want to watch you musically masturbate...especially the people you play with.
Overplaying isn't bad. Every musician in the band should overplay. Wouldn't it be cool if we all just started a new trend where all the musicians soloed over the top of each other, on every song, all night long? Way too cool.
Now before you go off on a tantrum, take a deep breath and relax. Then, lock in with your drummer, get in the groove...and for God's sake don't overplay!
Freebird?Wouldn't it be cool if we all just started a new trend where all the musicians soloed over the top of each other
Actually, after having read this thread in it's entirety, I agree with most of the original post, though some of it is meaningless out of context. So read the following with a little joviality, alright?
You've got other issues anyway, if something as simple as an overused phrase brings you to anger. Perhaps you feel you don't get taken seriously enough as a bass player by those you wish would. Maybe because you feel that one shouldn't settle for other's imposed limitations, you are a tad bit touchy when anyone says anything that implies you should limit yourself. There is something underlying your rant besides the phrases themselves.
At any rate, you take yourself, and these phrases way too seriously.
Lock in with the drummer? No way! When you play, you don't want to "lock in" with anyone. In fact, the next time you play out with a band, play a completely different song just to prove your point!
It's not about the groove at all. Nobody wants to feel music, they just want to watch you musically masturbate...especially the people you play with.
Overplaying isn't bad. Every musician in the band should overplay. Wouldn't it be cool if we all just started a new trend where all the musicians soloed over the top of each other, on every song, all night long? Way too cool.
Now before you go off on a tantrum, take a deep breath and relax. Then, lock in with your drummer, get in the groove...and for God's sake don't overplay!
Great post!
Yes, it was very helpful and supportive.
God forbid anyone have a moment of irritation and post it on the internet.
I'm having one now.
...and anyone who wants to challenge that should shut their yap and get bent, you morons.
Yes, a moment that he has had numerous opportunities to correct, or at least explain. He has posted in this thread many times since his original post. The post could have been edited, or at least explained. So far, he seems to be doing nothing to correct himself.
When you make a post full of insults, threats and ultimatums, you aren't going to get a great response. It unfortunate that someone with his alleged experience can't convey his thoughts without the attitude. This thread COULD have been an interesting dialouge if old Jimbo had been willing to actually discuss his thoughts, rather than making sensational statements and then virtually daring anyone to disagree with him.
Besides, do you really think that was just a moment of irritation? That post would have taken awhile to type, and was even edited once. Seems to me that alot of thought went into his mildly pshchotic rant.
I'm having one now.
...and anyone who wants to challenge that should shut their yap and get bent, you morons.
I dare you to say that to my face! I'll kick you in the sack!
See Blisshead? Not the foundation for a formative conversation.
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