Phrasing

[bill_banwell]

Hi Talkbass,

I've been thinking about ways to advance on my phrasing - i notice some people try and sing along and play what they sing.. visa versa.. (Janek Gwizdala & Richard Bona for example) and other players prefer to think theoretically? i'm an ear player and never think too much in the way of scales or arpeggios, but more shapes or positions that i'm familiar with when I've previously noodled over certain chords, but another thing as an ear player i'm always taking risk's on a phrase which most of the time works great and i discover thing's i wouldn't as if i was thinking robotically about what key i'm in.. a clip of my solo improvisation is linked in this thread.

What are everything else approach to bass soloing/phrasing/improvising?

Bill.

 

[Corporate Boy]

Some things I have been working on....

Being aware of your target note of where you want your phrase to end. Most likely when you start thinking this way, you realize that giving space around that target note amplifies the importance of the note, which naturally gives you an end to your phrase. If you just jump right into the next phrase, the importance might be lost because it will sound like one long phrase. If your phrase is too long, it still might work, but you probably blew by some \ natural ending places for a shorter phrase. In the end your phrase hopefully is staring an idea. If it is too long winded, no one going to get it if you carry on too long. If you can't simply grasp the phrase then it is probably too long. You can check yourself in a jam by stating your idea, and then begin to transpose it across the chord progression or the mode.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

You asked, so --- string of notes is a string of notes. You mentioned singing. If you were singing the tune you would sing the same way we talk - in phrases. Scott Devine has a good video on this.

 

[thewildest]

From my point of view, I am all for of you "singing" what you want to play, but not necessarily over the notes you are playing with the bass. To tell you the truth, I find the singing over playing distracting, annoying and a tad circus-like. On the other hand, the best you can do is to listen to the background, and create a melody in your head... which then you bring into the bass. The more you do this, faster will be the process. You will find soon that it will become less about the scales but more about the expression and significance of whatever you want to say with your bass.

That's what Charlie Parker did, and they don't make them like him these days....

 

[xUptheIronsx]

Having grown up a drummer (still am), and living in the world of music reading and theory, i am sort of coming at this from the polar opposite viewpoint as the OP. To me phrasing is organized by a certain number of counts first. The introduction of, duration of, and resolution of any phrase happens around a prescribed number of pulses. After this, I feel like the flow and resolution of a harmonic structure is the next thing that identifies it.

What I have encountered with most "by ear" guys is that they can hear the harmonic structure resolve, but sometimes can not anticipate the duration of the resolve relative to the pulses (counts). This happens a lot with "by ear" drummers, and the result is a "failure" in finishing a fill or set up to the next phrase b/c they shorted or extended the phrase by a few counts. OP, is this what you are experiencing? Like, do you feel that your flow from phrase-to-phrase is stiff. or like you miss-align the phrase change with the rest of the group?

Singing is a good way to help with the connectivity of phrases, but it is irrelevant (IMO) to sing if you don't feel how the pulse drives everything. (Hence the MULTITUDE of vocalists who have absolutely no time).

Phrases are almost always organized in 4 or 8 bar chunks (or some amount of even numbers). Given the time signature, these chunks will be broken into repetitive groupings of pulses - in 4/4 time, that would be groupings of 4. So in an 8 measure phrase in 4/4 time, there are 32 counts. The phrase will establish itself in the first 2 measures, "sit" in the middle 4 measures, and start to resolve in the last 2. I feel like when my students finally get this kind of awareness of the phrase flow, they start "getting it" on both drums and bass

Hope this helps, and does not confuse....

 

[matthewbrown]

Hal Crook's "How to Improvise" has some good tips, but they boil down to this: Practice phrasing by working on 1)entering on different beats/upbeats 2)varying the length of your phrases.
And of course, listening to players who have interesting approaches to phrasing. I love Oliver Nelson for his long, worked-out phrases just as I love Eric Dolphy and Cannonball Adderley for their surprising turns.

 

[bill_banwell]

Great words guys, very nice input!

 

[tonemachine]

Hi Talkbass,

I've been thinking about ways to advance on my phrasing - i notice some people try and sing along and play what they sing.. visa versa.. (Janek Gwizdala & Richard Bona for example) and other players prefer to think theoretically? i'm an ear player and never think too much in the way of scales or arpeggios, but more shapes or positions that i'm familiar with when I've previously noodled over certain chords, but another thing as an ear player i'm always taking risk's on a phrase which most of the time works great and i discover thing's i wouldn't as if i was thinking robotically about what key i'm in.. a clip of my solo improvisation is linked in this thread.

What are everything else approach to bass soloing/phrasing/improvising?

Bill.

I've read here that theory helps explain things... rather than determining what one plays.

Targets help, like one member said, but how you get there is entirely your freedome.

Theory can also help some of us organize our learning but "I think" (italics if i wasnt on phone)that big time players are at a level where they don't have to think about theory as they play, it's second nature at that point. Just like you don't think about grammar anymore while typing, you just do it.

Your playing can only benefit from learning "theory"...as i use it, a broad term for many more things than just scales and cadences.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I would put the bass down a bit. Play the backing and sing out loud. Then pick the bass and sing through your finger. You need a different mind set to solo than the traditionnal bass "role"

 

[bill_banwell]

Thanks for the input, all!

Here is a more recent video of my phrasing practice:

 

[BassChuck]

Play melodies of the songs you like.
Listen to singers.
Horn players rarely have this problem because they have to breathe to play their instrument, so there is a natural phrasing that comes with the technique of playing, just like singing.
Listen to the way people talk, again, natural phrasing.
Remember that all music is made of up of melodies (some are just more important than others). Even in the simplest of bass lines, keep the concept of phrasing in your playing. If your part is all I and V's, some of them will be more important than others and that what pilots the energy of the phrase. (or just listen to your lead melody and work with them).

 

[Spin Doctor]

All the previous advice aside, I don't hear a thing wrong with your phrasing. You have a nice way of handling the bass. I'd just keep doing you and not worry about it.

 

[bill_banwell]

All the previous advice aside, I don't hear a thing wrong with your phrasing. You have a nice way of handling the bass. I'd just keep doing you and not worry about it.

Okay - Cheers bro, i appreciate it.