Double Bass pickup for loud music!

[kurt]

I'm using a schertler stat- B. I can't tell if it feeds back less or more than the Underwood I had on before. I have foam stuffed in the f holes and a rag under the tail piece and I use the leather ties on my quiver to dampen the afterlength of the strings. I play a lot of load volume gigs (country band with tele's and drums) and sometimes the crowd is almost loader than us. feedback is almost always a problem. Sometimes I turn the amp right off on stage but the mains are so loud that it still fedds like crazy.
I just have the stat pre right now but I'm thinking about upgrading. Schertler says their Pre A III pre amp has a resonance filter that helps prevent feedback? It looks to me that it just cuts low frequencies. Has anyone used this set up? I've been looking at other pre amps that have the phase reversal, would that be better than the pre A III? Is there better pickups to prevent feddback than the schertler? It doesn't have the pronounced sustain that most piezo's have so I figured the strings would be less likely to take off.

 

[fokof]

Phase reversal will not change anything for a feedbacking URB.
Instead , just move 6 inches front or back.

What phase reverse does ; the speaker will move rear/front instead of front/rear. It won't change a thing if there is a feedback wich is in general , a single frequency that rolls between your instrument and your amp. You want the ability to cut that frequency alone with a good parametric EQ.

If you absolutly want a phase reverse , buy a cheap xtension AC , change the male part with ea new one. Just switch the black & the white.
Your phase will be 180°

 

[fokof]

Phase reverse will switch polarity ( 180° )

But something that can come handy in some situation is the abilty to change the phase.
So that little box is a jewel ;
http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html

That would do the trick as phase is concerned , not a phase reverse.

A phase reverse will be helpfull if you mix a band and the Kick and the bass is 180° out of phase. Or if you mic the top and bottom snare , you will change the polarity of the bottom mike.Other than that , ...

 

[TVD]

Consider a Feedback Exterminator/suppressor. They can toss in a very narrow notches that suppress the feedback but allow the bass to still sound natural.

+ 1 on the feedback destroyer! I picked up a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro 1124P, and after getting it set up right, which is the key, I haven't had even one problem with feedback since. Before that I was fine on moderate volume gigs, but the high volume ones I had, feedback was killing me, and robbing me of the joy of playing upright big time. I picked up the feedback destroyer cheap used, you could probably find one on eBay for 50 bucks. I tried to set it up myself, and it got rid of the feedback, but it also got rid of all the tone too, sounded bad. Then I took it over to Country Bass' house, who posted on this thread. Thanks a ton Andy by the way, haven't had a chance to talk to you since then, but what we did that night has worked absolutely perfectly. I haven't had to change the settings we ended up with for any room since, just plug in and go. It's been a dream, I don't have to worry about where I stand anymore, and on top of that, it just plain old sounds good. Good tone, it took a big worry off my mind. The key is in the set up though. Countty Bass and I fooled around with it for hours that night, it wasn't fast. We ended up working on the frequencies from string to string. The unit actually is user friendly, if you know how to use it, but if you don't, I can see why people would give up on it and call it junk or whatever, but it's actually anything but once set up right.
Now some people here might say that's not a good solution, but hey, it's worked for me, and was a cheap fix. The unit is a parametric EQ with bandwidth on it, so it has all that covered.
Quick note about pickups. That night at Country Bass' place, we tried my bass, a 1960's German made Knilling with an RSII on it, his 50's Kay with an RSII on it, and his new Cleveland with I think a Full Circle on it. And honestly, the pickup on the Cleveland blew the RSII on both of our other basses away. It wasn't even close really, both for tone and no feedback at high volumes. Both of our basses with the RSII had the same problems before messing around a lot with the feedback destroyer. If I am ever in the market for another pickup, I def want was on that Cleveland, which I think was a Full Circle. Correct me if I'm wrong Andy. Of course, that Cleveland sounded great acoustically, so that may have been part of it too, but there was no doubt the pickup on that bass kicked major butt compared to the RSII. Trent

 

[SAlcott]

I've been following this thread for a while. I've responded once, and feel I have to jump in again. This is my opinion based on 35+ years of experience on stages large and small with bands of every description and volume. You can take it or leave it. The acoustic bass is designed to project sound acoustically. Therefore, to expect it to be able to be amplified to extreme levels is not feasible. I have been amplifying basses since the days when the Polytone bridge pickup was state of the art. I have used both clipon and internal Barcus-Berry pickups, Underwood, Fishman, Schertler, Accusound, etc., etc. I have a Full Circle on my LaScala-it sounds great. But if I get called to play a gig that I know is going to require earplugs, I'll bring the Vertical Bass. Same pickup, no feedback, woody sound, decent arco. If someone has a problem with the way it looks, I just suggest they listen with their ears instead of their eyes. By the time the drums are miked up and the guitard has his Twin reverb on 8, any subtlety of tone provided by a "real" bass is going to be lost. Foam in the F holes, nerf ball behind the tailpiece, damping in the strings, who are we kidding? All that stuff does is make it LESS acoustic and turn it into a halfassed EUB. A good EUB sounds better at high volume than a stifled, over EQed acoustic. You can't get around the laws of physics: a large hollow instrument is going to feed back at high volume, no matter how much money and technology you throw at it.

 

[fokof]

+1

 

[abaguer]

++1 Listen to Steve.

 

[akmusicfreak]

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[wiro]

Funny that no-one mentioned it before:
All feedback sensitive sources need two different signal paths to be able to get LOUD without having problems: One for the monitors and one for the FOH.

If a singer demands his/her stage sound full range with effects then feedback will happen. Same goes for upright.

Last summer I did a gig outside without PA and I made the mistake to bring just one cab. The AI Focus with Schroeder 1212 can produce quite some volume (the drummer litterally fell from his stool when I plugged the first note) but the problem was the vibrating stage. Especially when bowing it's almost impossible to dampen the not-used strings while trying to intonate correctly. And while we were blown away by my bass sound on stage the audience five yards from stage could hardly hear the bass. While it's not even a loud band! So as above allready mentioned when you wanna get really loud this won't work.
Fingerstyle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mn7fr7XjoQ
And bowing:
Invalid Link Removed

Then I googled a bit and came across a guy who uses his own monitor. Since I got all the stuff at home I tried but my RCF monitor (200 W active with a 12") was farting all the way because it couldn't handle the lows. Now on my AER sub there is a 'high pass out' which I connected into the monitor and there it was: Freeking loud and no feedback issues.
So since then I bring my own monitor cutting out all low frequencies and the PA can take care for the real power and the overall sound.

 

[Gearhead43]

I find this thread to be pretty amusing. Go over to rockabillybass.com and read about how to amplify a double bass at loud volumes. Most of it is in the EQing, damping the afterlength and/or tailpiece, & proper fitment of your pickup. We also make use of low-cut filters and phase switches, and having ample overhead is very important - which is why many rockabilly bassists use very powerfull bass rigs.

A very popular Rockabilly setup is an Underwood (or Bassmax or Rev Solo II) into the Fishman Pro Platinum preamp. It is also common to scoop the midrange frequencies which are responsible for a majority of the feedback. A parametric EQ or a 15 or 31 band graphic EQ is also a good tool for this. A big fat scooped bass sound is popular for alot of roots music in general, and sounds good for slap bass technique. Fat bass, and clear highs/high-mids for the "click".

Anyone playing loud music is most likely not trying to reproduce a fully transparent "natural" tone, or a midrangey Jazz tone, which should go without saying.

Another thing, an EUB sounds nothing like a real double bass does when amplified, IMO. A amplified acoustic bass sounds like an amplified acoustic bass, even at high volumes, to me.

There are many, many professsional rockabilly, rock, and roots music bassists playing at very loud volumes WITH a piezo pickup. It is by no means "impossible". More rockabilly players use piezos than magnetic pickups.

and no, most guys aren't playing basses stuffed with foam or otherwise heavily dampened. Most rockabilly players hate damping or muting there basses because it does effect the basses tone in a bad way. (yes, we DO care) Taping or foam in the f-holes is usually a last resort used in bad rooms, etc.

There is of course a volume limit, but it is alot louder than this thread and the opinions expessed therein would lead people to believe.

When is the last time you saw a Rockabilly bass player using an EUB? Great care, planning, research, practice, experimenting, and sometimes ALOT of money goes into getting a good rockabilly bass sound live.

 

[SAlcott]

Your standard designed-for-rockabilly "acoustic" bass has very little acoustic output, due to the heavy construction and internal bracing required for an instrument the player can stand on. This makes it easier to amplify. Scoop the mids, lots of bottom, lots of highs for the slap; not what most would consider a good acoustic bass sound. Sounds like Marcus Miller's EQ to me.
If you can find a copy of "Alive and Lickin" by Dan Hicks, give it a listen and see if you can tell what kind of bass is being used.

 

[akmusicfreak]

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[SAlcott]

If you want to play upright loud, use a magnetic pickup.

 

[Marc Piane]

If you want to play upright loud, use a magnetic pickup.

You mean play a P-Bass?

 

[jrlynch]

+1 ... jez, a double bass is *such a huge pain in the ass* to move, to physically play, to store safely, you-name-it ... the reward is in the nuanced sound. but if you kill the sound of the instrument trying to amplify it to death, it becomes just a stage prop, and that is sad, sad, sad. so why bother???

i agree, if you want loud semi-real double bass sound, buy an eub.

or turn it down.

jeff.

What kind of pick up did Lee Rocker use for a long time on his double bass?..............It would be P-Bass magnetic pick-ups.

How good is your bass really going to sound once you have EQed the heck out of it, how "real is it going to sound?
The low bass frequencies feedback the worst on a DB which means your going to castrating a lot of bottom end to get the volume up.

Some will say well let the house pick up the bottom end, but a lot of clubs have bad PAs, and half their sub woofers working.
If the acoustics are bad your going to have the same problems from the house sound as you do with your amps.

Why don't you see rockabilly dudes playing EUB?
Probably because it doesn't look as cool,and you can't stand on it.

If you use piezo, and mag pickups together you can get a pretty natural sound at very loud volumes compared to EQing the heck out of you bass.

As far as CD's and tracks go. The recording studio is a whole different thing, it's easy to make something sound good when your drummer is in his own room, guitar amps are 30 watts instead 100+watts, and you are all wearing headphones.

Don't get me wrong here guys, I like rockabilly. But most of the shows I've seen,the doghouse bass has sounded washed out, due to stage volumes.

Good luck to all and best wishes.

 

[SAlcott]

"....if you kill the sound of the instrument trying to amplify it to death, it becomes just a stage prop...."

My point exactly; if appearance is that important and you plan to stand on your bass a lot, get a designed-for-Rockabilly bass, put a mag on the strings, a piezo under the fingerboard, and go to town. You should be able to crank it almost as much as an EUB or bass guitar before the laws of physics kick in. The only drawback I can see with this setup is that the actual notes played will be accurately reproduced.

 

[kurt]

I've had a lot of trouble with feedback over the years even in jazz groups. I've messed around with different pickups, foam, tailpiece dampening, preamps, you name it. The bass I've been using for the past 12 years is a 40 year old German carved bass, probably a Wilfer or something similar. It is very resonant, lots of sustain and loads of bottom. Recently I bought a new Wilfer plywood bass. It sounds good, decent sustain but WAY quieter acoustically with way less bottom end. I'm using nylon strings and a scherlter stat-B (miniature mic bridge pickup) which sounds acousticy but feedback prone.

I just finished a tour with a country band where we played a string of hockey arenas and there was almost no feedback! I still had the tailpiece and afterlengths muted but no foam in the f holes. I didn't use phase reversal or hi pass filter at all and still no feedback. Certain notes were still louder than others, usually the open strings, but I've had that problem with electric bass too. It's more likely that it was the room frequency than the bass causing it. Memorize the frequencies of the open strings and tell the soundguy which one is too loud. I've had great success with this. While this set up doesn't sound exactly like an acoustic bass when it's at mach 10 it sounds like it retains much more of the character of an acoustic bass to my ear than the eminence that I use on fly in gigs. Plus it feels about ten times better. I worked on developing good posture and a good holding stance for 15 years and I just can't get it happening on a pogo stick bass with some kind of railing stuck into my gut.

So I think I'll stick to using a real bass when I can. I still can't figure how guys like Dave Holland do it with a carved bass and loud drummers though....

 

[Bass]

If you want to play upright loud, use a magnetic pickup.

Most people who have a doublebass want it to sound acoustic, even if they play Rockabilly!

Very few people are so fortunate to own a King Doublebass (designed-for-rockabilly) some of which come with piezo pickups. Most people use a standard laminate bass, or whatever they can afford. An e-bass just wont do, not only is tone lost, the rhythm is upset and yes stage presence is lost.

If you want to play upright loud, do what Gearhead and Kurt said.

 

[Gearhead43]

Your standard designed-for-rockabilly "acoustic" bass has very little acoustic output, due to the heavy construction and internal bracing required for an instrument the player can stand on. This makes it easier to amplify. Scoop the mids, lots of bottom, lots of highs for the slap; not what most would consider a good acoustic bass sound. Sounds like Marcus Miller's EQ to me.

Congrats! You have just won the "Let's Talk Out of Our @sses Award".

What a load. Your entire post sounds like you regurgitated some crap that "you heard somewhere".

Thanks for the laugh though.

 

[SAlcott]

Gearhead, I don't regurgitate. I answered a poster asking for advice with information based on 35+ years of trying to get a good amplified sound with a double bass in many different playing situations from intimate clubs to large venues. My description of the King is based on my own examination of said instrument. No putdown intended; it is a fine instrument for its intended use. Whatever EQ works for you is fine with me. The facts remain, though; the more acoustic output the instrument has, the harder it will be to amplify.