The sub built into wall is messing with my head trying to work out what that is going to do acoustically. I'd certainly be taking my own P.A.
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PICS-Ever See In-House PA Like This?
- Thread starter Leadfoot
- Start date
Long and narrow, reflecting stone walls ... we play occasionally in a place like that and I've completely given up on the bass sound there, it's boominess and resonance heaven. Good luck though, and please report on how it worked out, and how you set up your bass sound.
Nevermind the sound... how are you planning on fitting a band on that stage? It looks like the one chair is taking up half of it already. E drums? Nah... might want to talk your drummer into bringing a djembe or a conga instead of a drum set. Maybe just a snare and some brushes? Hopefully it's a camera trick, but that stage looks TINY. That stage and setup screams acoustic solo/duo act, not full band. Best of luck, but I'd take a gig with a huge stage and NO pa over a house system and one sheet of plywood for a stage any day...
Play in New York? In the Village? Every bar on street has this kind of setup ... or worse. We were doing jazz and blues as a duo, so the room wasn't a big concern to us, but murder on bands. At least the place is clean (for the time being).
Acoustically neutral, the ports are in the front and the false column is close to the rear wall, sadly right next to the opening losing half the boundary effect.
I wonder about that camera effect, same reason I thought the sub was a tiddler. Just how big is the stage?
I played guitar in a five piece band for a NYE gig many moons ago up on the top shelf behind the bar where they usually put the expensive liquor. Well, everybody but the drummer was up there; he was on the floor over to the side. We had to climb up there in order, and being on the end stage left, I had to get up there first and I couldn't get down unless everyone else got off first. I had a spot about a foot and a half square to stand in all night and I had to be careful not to kick over all the liquor bottles in front of my feet on the next shelf down. Monitors? Yeah, right.
Every other stage I have played on seems gigantic by comparison.
*Update* Hi, we practiced at the bar on Tues night and we are gigging tonight and tomorrow. I had a chance to inspect the gear and they've got some quality stuff. All the mains/monitors are self-powered QSC K10's and the board is a Allen Heath model (never heard of it, but the band's sound guy said it was a good one.)
There is a separate speaker control module behind the bar that can adjust the volume of each individual main mounted in the ceiling. The board controls the stage monitors and mains, but the bar can also adjust them.
We set up and dialed in as best we could. The place was empty, of course, and the sound was bouncing off the high ceiling and wood floor. The brick walls did not seem to be too much of a problem. No feedback issues, and as you all predicted, it sounds best with our stage volume lower than usual. We did not mess with the subwoofer yet, because we were getting a good bass response thru my cabinet and the mains.
Pics:
Stage:
Board
QSC
Bar's speaker controller
There is a separate speaker control module behind the bar that can adjust the volume of each individual main mounted in the ceiling. The board controls the stage monitors and mains, but the bar can also adjust them.
We set up and dialed in as best we could. The place was empty, of course, and the sound was bouncing off the high ceiling and wood floor. The brick walls did not seem to be too much of a problem. No feedback issues, and as you all predicted, it sounds best with our stage volume lower than usual. We did not mess with the subwoofer yet, because we were getting a good bass response thru my cabinet and the mains.
Pics:
Stage:
Board
QSC
Bar's speaker controller
For a place called "Vintage Piano Bar" I see a marked lack of piano.
I've played in bars like that, even smaller where the stage was by the door, long and skinny rooms. They were fine once packed with people but a little loose with no crowd. Keep us posted on how it turns out, interesting thread.
I've played in bars like that, even smaller where the stage was by the door, long and skinny rooms. They were fine once packed with people but a little loose with no crowd. Keep us posted on how it turns out, interesting thread.
"Built" into the wall is one thing, but how they did it isn't going to help much other than maybe to save some floor space. It's not going to couple with the floor (or a wall, & certainly not a corner) to help it out a bit.
Overall, it looks like somebody sold somebody else a bunch of "good", expensive gear but didn't know how to design the installation properly. Somebody who knew what they were doing could have done a better job of serving their client's interest by providing a better design & more modestly-priced gear.
Easy..if i was using my gear 1 sub and 1 single 15 w/horn up nice and high.Easy to over PA that room
By looking at this picture, I can tell you that sound system has all the ability in the world to kick ass for light club music from trios, duos, small bands playing light rock, jazz, piano music, etc. It is obviously not a "rock" room.
The remote controller is a Symetrix ARC-2e adaptive remote controller that works only with Symetrix's Symnet line of digital signal processing, which is absolutely as top notch a pro audio piece as anyone can ask for. In a Symnet DSP, you have the equivalent of a six foot tall rack of outboard analog processing, all in one sweet single rack space device. I just installed 25 of the, in a convention center. I've installed over 750 of them in the past 10 years. They usually come in the shape of an eight input to sixteen input by eight output processor depending on the model. So plenty of outs to delay loudspeakers. The unique thing is by using presets accessible via the ARC, the system can be set up to "play" from the stage and then during normal foreground music playback, the room can be reorientated to be a true stereo system without the time alignment delays. It's a pretty common setup for a "classier" joint like this. I've used in them over two hundred Churches, two dozen or more arenas, and many performing art centers. Good stuff.to
We all know the QSC stuff is also top notch. The bass being in a wall may or may not be an issue, but it's placement outside of a wall would not be a problem, the waveforms of the audio being kicked out by the sub won't take shape until it's really past the stage. This would not be a place where anything besides acoustic instruments and voice would be reinforced. It's just not really that big of a place so no real need. This system was never intended to much more than I have described, but it should sound terrific. They wisely use a small live analog board simple enough for a band to use as a sub mixer to send the vocals and such thru to the Symnet.
The bigger issue would be the room. Looking at it, it has a noisy reflective ceiling, lots of tall flat hard surfaced walls, a hard floor, so yeah it's going to have a painful slap back happening. Loud rock music would bounce around badly. Light music would actually do better with it.
The remote controller is a Symetrix ARC-2e adaptive remote controller that works only with Symetrix's Symnet line of digital signal processing, which is absolutely as top notch a pro audio piece as anyone can ask for. In a Symnet DSP, you have the equivalent of a six foot tall rack of outboard analog processing, all in one sweet single rack space device. I just installed 25 of the, in a convention center. I've installed over 750 of them in the past 10 years. They usually come in the shape of an eight input to sixteen input by eight output processor depending on the model. So plenty of outs to delay loudspeakers. The unique thing is by using presets accessible via the ARC, the system can be set up to "play" from the stage and then during normal foreground music playback, the room can be reorientated to be a true stereo system without the time alignment delays. It's a pretty common setup for a "classier" joint like this. I've used in them over two hundred Churches, two dozen or more arenas, and many performing art centers. Good stuff.to
We all know the QSC stuff is also top notch. The bass being in a wall may or may not be an issue, but it's placement outside of a wall would not be a problem, the waveforms of the audio being kicked out by the sub won't take shape until it's really past the stage. This would not be a place where anything besides acoustic instruments and voice would be reinforced. It's just not really that big of a place so no real need. This system was never intended to much more than I have described, but it should sound terrific. They wisely use a small live analog board simple enough for a band to use as a sub mixer to send the vocals and such thru to the Symnet.
The bigger issue would be the room. Looking at it, it has a noisy reflective ceiling, lots of tall flat hard surfaced walls, a hard floor, so yeah it's going to have a painful slap back happening. Loud rock music would bounce around badly. Light music would actually do better with it.
Attachments
I have played a bar like this. We supplied a pa at the stage, nothing too big, and fed the house av system a stereo out of the little board we used. A monitor for vocals and a monitor for drums. Most of the volume came from the stage, but the house av backed us up a little and filled in the room without blasting the dance floor.
*Update #2* Hi, we gigged on 1/16 (invite-only party) and the official opening on 1/17. No surprise that the sound bounced off the ceiling and floor all the way to the front of the bar. I figure the brick walls weren't too much of a problem. Less is more. Our stage volume was lower than usual.
So, we controlled the stage volume and main above the dance floor first. My 2x10 cabinet was not DI or miced and could be heard w/no problem. The guitars and bass drum were mixed thru the mains. To get a good sound mix, when the place 1/2 to 3/4 full, the 3 wall-mounted mains facing the bar were barely on. We turned them up when it was at capacity. The 4th main over the dance floor and our 3 stage monitors maintained adequate volume/mix for the whole place. The SWoofer was not used. Next time we'll try to DI my bass and mix in the SW.
So, most of you all were right on the money. It seems that they over-bought the high-end sound system. What I mean is, the gear far exceeds the needs of the lounge, and is more suitable for a nightclub. Because of the acoustics, those 1K watt mains won't get much use and they could have gone with a lower power rating.
PS, No false advertising. The piano is in the front of the bar, and the stage is in the back. So it doesn't show in the pics.
Thanks again for all the input and advice. I hope other TB'ers find this useful.
So, we controlled the stage volume and main above the dance floor first. My 2x10 cabinet was not DI or miced and could be heard w/no problem. The guitars and bass drum were mixed thru the mains. To get a good sound mix, when the place 1/2 to 3/4 full, the 3 wall-mounted mains facing the bar were barely on. We turned them up when it was at capacity. The 4th main over the dance floor and our 3 stage monitors maintained adequate volume/mix for the whole place. The SWoofer was not used. Next time we'll try to DI my bass and mix in the SW.
So, most of you all were right on the money. It seems that they over-bought the high-end sound system. What I mean is, the gear far exceeds the needs of the lounge, and is more suitable for a nightclub. Because of the acoustics, those 1K watt mains won't get much use and they could have gone with a lower power rating.
PS, No false advertising. The piano is in the front of the bar, and the stage is in the back. So it doesn't show in the pics.
Thanks again for all the input and advice. I hope other TB'ers find this useful.
Nice work. Hope the rest of your local bands are onto it and they will do well with live music in spite of the handicapped room.
The house of blues in myrtle beach has the main pa on stage with other speakers all over the place and they've figured out a way to make it work somehow. It wouldn't be ideal to me at small gigs but different isn't always bad, i try it and if it didn't work it didn't work. I can say we played a coliseum through a pa that was way up in the air and the delay between what came out of my amp and what i heard coming from the pa made it difficult to play. In a smaller area i wouldn't think it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But the bigger the venue the bigger the delay for what you hear onstage and what's coming out of the pa that's audible from the stage.
