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Double Bass pics of the B21

olivier said:
... your questions are pertinent. I guess instead of gessing I'll forward them to Patrick Charton, and then will go back to TB. Now is the time for more questions and comments, I'll harvest them tomorrow morning (French time) and hopefully will be able to post answers during the day.

Fellow TBers, Monsieur Charton's answer was in my mail box this morning. Herewith I forward it to you, with the provision that I have no business relations with him and that I do this to bring first hand information to TBers and to fuel interesting discussions.


Dear double bass lovers,

Thank you for your response to my "B 21" model that I just presented in the Paris MUSICORA music fair with great success. I have won the "Prix de la Facture Instrumentale for 2004" with this project and my best reward was that the great French double-bass virtuoso Daniel MARILLIER has ordered one "B 21" from me. He immediately felt the changes in tone and playability that I wanted to occur in such a new model : "it reacts as a cello" he said "but with the sound of a deep old bass"...
Richness of tone, loudness, ease of playing : these were my main concerns. All of you noticed the F holes' new design which do have a part in the result, along with a new type of arching and the overall design meant to enhance the vibration of the strings. I designed this whole instrument to be in perfect balance. This way the bow or pizz don't have to fight until proper pressure is reached : all the energy given by the player is transformed into sound. The resonance leads one note to the other with no cut.
The whole design of this bass came from these different ideas on sound production, to which I added my knowledge of bassists wishes as far as comfort, setting up functionalities and everyday transportation problems are concerned :
- No need of any more bridge adjustors : the finger board raises and goes down in a second with a slight turn of a screw in the back. That sets your string heights without cutting the bridge (which does affect the tone a great deal)
-27 seconds to take off the neck when you need to travel in a plane. I am having the flight case made to the proportions of the body without the neck and the bridge : this will really be small.
Of course the strings will take a few minutes to sound good again but they won't be ruined if you tune them back up smoothly (I've done it about 65 times during Musicora and the bass still sounded wonderfully).
The other amazing thing about removing the neck is that you can have a 5 string neck and change your bass to a 5 stringer within 2 minutes. I have imagined a very simple way to release the extra tension by changing the angle of the strings on the bridge. You want to play gut strings too ? : have another neck with strings already set, then sharpen the angle in just 5 seconds and play...
The sound post is of course a source of worry : if it is well adjusted it should not fall (I've travelled in trains for hours with no problem). However you do need to feel secure about it. I have found two easy ways to take care of that : one is not patented yet an I'll keep it secret until then. The other one is a simple (big) rubber band set to replace the bridge pressure once removed.
- No more worn out edges with the B 21 bass : I have inlayed a rubber lace all around the bass, back and top. You may have not noticed it on pictures but it is very efficient and cute... You will be able to replace it very easily when worn out.
- at the end the aesthetics turned into a new design, though inspired by my knowledge of how the great Italian makers used to work and to conceive their instruments.
I am very proud as a luthier to be making double basses because only in this field of action did I find the openness of mind and the wish of changes that lead me to conceive for over two years the "B 21" model.
B 21 stands for "a Bass for the 21st century". I hope I have opened a door to honest research in the field of classical instruments.

Patrick Charton

P.S. The bridge is very carefully designed too : the legs won't open any more and it carries and amplifies vibrations very accurately. Its sharp look doesn't affect bowing : you could add this sharp edge on your usual bridge without even removing the strings.
 
Wow, Olivier,

Thanks for sharing this with us! I always admired Charton's work, especially because it is very innovative, but this is the epithome of innovativity (is that a word?)! I'm feeling double bass GAS is burping up, something I thought would never happen to me...

Vincent

EDIT: I really like the idea of the rubber bands along the sides of the bass. It looks sharp, too.
 
Jeff Bollbach said:
I disagree with Bob 100%. A soundpost off one degree is not fitting. 3 out of four luthiers do not have the tools[light] or the eyesight to see the difference. Forget players[sorry Paul, maybe you got the mojo]. That's why almost every bass I see has dents or craters where the post goes.

Maybe good players aren't the only victims... :)
 
I looked inside my bass once.
Bob, I can barely straighten my bridge myself, much less f**k around with the soundpost. There are plenty of guys out there who do a lot of work on their own cars, that's another thing I leave to folks who do that for a living. They want to, they spend a lot of time getting it right. I am happy to pay for their expertise.

Charton is a bad boy (I like Auray's basses a little more), but this is one nice portable option. The "adjust the neck not the bridge" apporach is like Jim Hamm's, right? How similar are the mechanisms? I guess I would worry about the windings on strings too. Taking them off the bridge and then putting them back on is gonna wear and tear. I guess it just depends on how much you fly? Cause that's the only time you're really gonna need to tear it down, is to put in baggage. Once you're on the ground you can bus/train it assembled and just in the bag.
 
Wow, I forgot my manners big time by starting a @#$%ing contest with Bob and not even commenting on Patrick's wonderful bass. I love it! Very artistic and seemingly addresses old concerns and introduces new innovation. As a builder I also love what he did with the corners. I hate bending violin corners with a passion-it's not easy! Those corners have a very cool look but require a minimum of bending. Wish I thought of it first. I am curious about the head-it must have some functionality. Any ideas?

And Bob--if a player has a command performance with the Queen and his post falls, well mebbe then I would recommend he put it up himself. Better a poor fit then no post. But a poor fit always results in damage to the top. A tight well fit post is less likely to result in damage than a well fit one just slightly off it's axis. A post 2 degrees off it's axis will ALWAYS dent the top. This accumulates each time the post is reset to the same specs. I always say that post fitting is ounce per ounce more difficult than neck grafts. One day we'll have a contest-you fit a post, I'll graft a scroll. After we'll check for gaps.
 
Jeff Bollbach said:
And Bob--if a player has a command performance with the Queen and his post falls, well mebbe then I would recommend he put it up himself. Better a poor fit then no post. But a poor fit always results in damage to the top. A tight well fit post is less likely to result in damage than a well fit one just slightly off it's axis. A post 2 degrees off it's axis will ALWAYS dent the top. This accumulates each time the post is reset to the same specs. I always say that post fitting is ounce per ounce more difficult than neck grafts. One day we'll have a contest-you fit a post, I'll graft a scroll. After we'll check for gaps.
Jeff - All I can add is that I repect your work as much as anyones, but it this case I can only agree to disagree with you. You go on doing your usual fine work, and I'll will continue to teach good players how to set their posts as best as I know how to do it. It might not meet your standards, but I'm not ashamed of the way I've done it for 40 years.
 
I always say that post fitting is ounce per ounce more difficult than neck grafts. One day we'll have a contest-you fit a post, I'll graft a scroll. After we'll check for gaps.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that sounds like an interesting ISB contest...


Charton's bass- very interesting! Thanks for the pics olivier.

The soundpost thing- as you mentioned, Bob, some players think a soundpost adjustment can do miracles. You wouldn't want them to knock around their soundpost every month. These individuals need to be firmly and politely educated. And, yes, there are emergency times when it isn't possible to get to a luthier, and having a couple of tools handy would really save the gig, so to speak. But, the instrument should be checked out asap after the performance.

Jeff's angle is pretty much: a little information can go too far. Luthiers have seen pretty serious damage caused by a confident person with unexperienced hands. We all want to have informed customers that don't make rash decisions.
 
While I personally don't equate conservative with stubborn, I do appreciate your efforts. When you consider the numerous times that Jeff and I have been in agreement, it is only natural that there would be some things on which we would not agree. I consider all the luthiers here (especially you, Jeff and Arnold) to be my friends and a little disagreement among us is not going to change that.
 
reviving a slightly dated thread, which I missed first time around...

I came across this thing first on Charton's own site, then found it had been discussed here as well. I too find this creation really interesting and generally quite attractive. Personally, the lack of scroll is the part that bothers me the most asthetically. I would have liked to see a modern reinterpretation of the traditional scroll, in the way that he has modernised the lines of the f-holes and C-bouts, rather than the stubby, blocky thing up there now. But that's me. Overall, I find it visually quite appealling.

But more important, are all the functional and practical innovations, undoubtedly motivated mainly for sound and playability. Two points not mentioned in previous discussion on this bass caught my eye. First, there seem to be two little holes in the top, partially under the bridge feet. Has anyone actually yet had a chance to see and play one of these basses? Maybe someone can shed some light on what's going on under these bridge feet.

Second, it looks like the tailpiece is radically modified functionally as well. Unless my eyes deceive me, the strings seem to pass across the inside of the tailpiece, rather than the outer face. There also seems to be some sort of mechanism back there for tuning the afterlength. There is a picture at the bottom of Charton's website Invalid Link Removed where you can click to enlarge the area under your cursor, to get a fairly good look at this.

I also noticed that the tailpiece wires are quite long, and terminate at a peg coming out of the front of the block through the top, not at the bottom. The long wires must be for sound reasons, but the physics of the force on that peg bother me a bit. I suppose it depends how the block is shaped and fit, and how its grain lies.

I have long been a big fan of Marillier's bass playing. The guy makes just about the most beautiful sound I have ever heard coming from a bowed bass. If Marillier is now using one of these instruments, that's a seriously strong endorsement in my mind. I'd love to hear a first-hand report from someone lucky enough to play this bass. Olivier, you're closest. Any chance?
 
myrick said:
reviving a slightly dated thread, which I missed first time around...

First, there seem to be two little holes in the top, partially under the bridge feet.

those are not holes, but guides to place the bridge properly when mounting the instrument


Has anyone actually yet had a chance to see and play one of these basses?

At the Paris music fair (Musicora) I did witness the mounting and dismounting of the B21, and I had the chance to play it (just a little bit). It’s a beautiful masterpiece of lutherie. The sound was good, maybe more geared towards solo bass than the 5 strings 4/4 section beast.

Second, it looks like the tailpiece is radically modified functionally as well. Unless my eyes deceive me, the strings seem to pass across the inside of the tailpiece, rather than the outer face. There also seems to be some sort of mechanism back there for tuning the afterlength. There is a picture at the bottom of Charton's website Invalid Link Removed where you can click to enlarge the area under your cursor, to get a fairly good look at this.

Good eye. I don’t remember the details about tuning the after-length, but yes, basically you’re correct.

I also noticed that the tailpiece wires are quite long, and terminate at a peg coming out of the front of the block through the top, not at the bottom. The long wires must be for sound reasons, but the physics of the force on that peg , me a bit. I suppose it depends how the block is shaped and fit, and how its grain lies.

Correct again, that peg has various notches so you can ajust the string after-length angle w/ bridge.

I have long been a big fan of Marillier's bass playing. The guy makes just about the most beautiful sound I have ever heard coming from a bowed bass. If Marillier is now using one of these instruments, that's a seriously strong endorsement in my mind. I'd love to hear a first-hand report from someone lucky enough to play this bass. Olivier, you're closest. Any chance?

As I said, I have played the thing a little bit. But what: 1 minute max, since lots of people wanted to get their hands on that incredible masterpiece of contemporary lutherie. Charton is a reputable luthier: all that stuff is done without compromising the sound, so the bass plays great, of course. I remember him saying how much he enjoys scratching his heads for new concepts in DB design that he can try at the bench and fine tune so the sound is not altered.

I think he mentioned that the neck mechanism technology might be transferable in the future... so, just imagine a bass that combines all that good stuff and the poplar ply of Arnie's New Standard. Here’s is your travel bass !!!
 
Very interesting stuff.

I'm planning on trying a Charton in a couple weeks, but its a much older instrument.

Much like Lakeberg, Charton also won a gold medal at the VSA this year.. Either way, I'm curious to see what a modern french instrument plays and feels like.
 
prelims222 said:
Very interesting stuff.

I'm planning on trying a Charton in a couple weeks, but its a much older instrument.

Much like Lakeberg, Charton also won a gold medal at the VSA this year.. Either way, I'm curious to see what a modern french instrument plays and feels like.
Please do report back to us on your experience?
I'm assuming there is something to cover up all the mechanical stuff in the neck block area.....Looks like you could easily get your arm pit injured in there. Nothin' worse than an arm pit injury.
 
Paul, when I first started back Playing, I was using my Batchelder with the Hat Peg gears.. One night at rehearsal, the Bass slips on the endpin, the button of the neck hits my Shoulder at the same time the 'E' string Peg 'nails' me in the Head... I think that's just about as bad...

Thought I had the endpin thing licked when a year later while playing with the Orchestra in a huge Church doing a Christmas Concert..... it happened again.. The Basses didn't fit on the Stage or risers so we were on the Linolium floor on the side of the Stage..... "Bang",.. the Bass slips again and almost gives me a concussion. I thought I had found a little joint between the cracks of the tiles on the floor but the virbations of the Bass must have made it slip out..

The Endpins on all my working Basses now have a rubber tip over the Spike for those slippery floors.....Boy..did I forget about the 'rock stop' thingy or what.. See what happends when you lay off it for 15 years....? My head feels better already...Armpits are fine as well...lol