You've mentioned Rob uses a big CNC before. I wonder about his thoughts on pin routers now that he has lots of time on both.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Pin Routers: The Old-School Production Workhorses
- Thread starter Bruce Johnson
- Start date
You've mentioned Rob uses a big CNC before. I wonder about his thoughts on pin routers now that he has lots of time on both.
Over the last two years, since I acquired the big pin router, Rob has been watching what I'm doing and has offered a lot of insight into running them and making the tooling. His overall opinion of them, from some years of running one, is about what I described at the start of this thread. A pin router is a big noisy scary machine, and running one all day isn't a fun job. But they turn out parts fast and in quantity. Pin routers were the workhorse of the mass-production woodworking industry for most of the 20th century.
A CNC machine is a whole lot more expensive and complicated to set up and run. A big CNC machine, like Rob's, can turn out parts somewhat faster than a pin router, if you push it. But the big advantage is that you don't have to stand there and run it all day. You can push the Start button and walk away while it runs its cycle on one part. When Rob is running a stack of Mouse bodies (he was last week), each cycle of the CNC was 4-5 minutes. During that time, he was sitting at a bench nearby, mostly doing deburring and checking fits and dimensions. Every time the cycle was up, he'd spend a minute pulling the finished part out and popping the next part in. Hit the Start button again and back to what he was doing at the bench.
That's what the workday is like running a CNC machine. Cleaner, quieter, less physical work than a pin router. But you still have to be right there and tend to it all day.
Another update/upgrade to the Big Green Pin Router!
When I did the test runs before, the dust/chip collection was mediocre. I had my small Grizzly dust collector hooked up to it with a 2 1/2" hose, through a wooden nozzle built into the safety guard foot. It kinda worked, but wasn't enough. Also, the hose was in the way, and kept catching on the sliding fixture. This calls for a redesign and an upgrade.
I built a new foot assembly, with a long wedge-shaped nozzle going to a 4" hose fitting. I made the nozzle go straight back beyond the table, to keep it all clear for the fixture to move around. I also mounted an aluminum gate valve at the back, so I can quickly shut off the suction flow.
The underside of the wedge nozzle has a V-notch. Hopefully it will provide real good suction velocity, aimed right at where the bit is routing the parts. There's also an adjustable support at the back, to hold up the hose and keep the long foot from getting bouncy.
And here's what the 4" hose hooks up to: the Super Sucker! You may have seen this monster over on my Secret Underground Lab thread. I found this Dayton Industrial Dust Collector in the Brian Hay estate stuff. I cleaned it up, modified it a bit, and decided to assign it specifically to the Big Green Pin Router. It's higher velocity and higher suction than a typical woodworking dust collector. But it's not really very loud. I think it's going to be perfect for this job, helping the pin router chomp away on walnut.
Next up, I'm going to be shuffling some more furniture around, and moving my main air compressor in there behind the Super Sucker, with a short hose directly to the Pin Router. It's all about getting the pin router set up to be an efficient workhorse, that I can run any time I need it. It needs its support machines.
When I did the test runs before, the dust/chip collection was mediocre. I had my small Grizzly dust collector hooked up to it with a 2 1/2" hose, through a wooden nozzle built into the safety guard foot. It kinda worked, but wasn't enough. Also, the hose was in the way, and kept catching on the sliding fixture. This calls for a redesign and an upgrade.
I built a new foot assembly, with a long wedge-shaped nozzle going to a 4" hose fitting. I made the nozzle go straight back beyond the table, to keep it all clear for the fixture to move around. I also mounted an aluminum gate valve at the back, so I can quickly shut off the suction flow.
The underside of the wedge nozzle has a V-notch. Hopefully it will provide real good suction velocity, aimed right at where the bit is routing the parts. There's also an adjustable support at the back, to hold up the hose and keep the long foot from getting bouncy.
And here's what the 4" hose hooks up to: the Super Sucker! You may have seen this monster over on my Secret Underground Lab thread. I found this Dayton Industrial Dust Collector in the Brian Hay estate stuff. I cleaned it up, modified it a bit, and decided to assign it specifically to the Big Green Pin Router. It's higher velocity and higher suction than a typical woodworking dust collector. But it's not really very loud. I think it's going to be perfect for this job, helping the pin router chomp away on walnut.
Next up, I'm going to be shuffling some more furniture around, and moving my main air compressor in there behind the Super Sucker, with a short hose directly to the Pin Router. It's all about getting the pin router set up to be an efficient workhorse, that I can run any time I need it. It needs its support machines.
I did some more machinery shuffling, in the interest of making my shop more efficient. My main air compressor was out in the hall, and it fed a trunk line running up and down the hall. It supplied compressed air lines to about eight other shops here, in addition to mine. Most of those guys have moved out now, and the tenants in there now don't need air. Plus, the big green pin router seems to need a little bit higher pressure than I was running on the trunk line.
So I moved the compressor in from the hall, back inside my main shop, right next to the pin router. It also happens to be only a few feet from the electrical sub-panel for my shop. Here it is, moved into the general area. I took the opportunity to clean it up, drain the water out of the tank, and check the oil.
This is a nice compressor. It's a Dayton Speedaire series, a 3-cylinder radial pump. It's much quieter than your typical 2-cylinder inline compressors. I bought it about 5 years ago from another tenant here. It's served me very well, and I hope it will for many more years.
In its new location, it's still plumbed into my main air network, including the trunk line going down the hall. The network also branches over into the machine shop and into the spray booth. Plus I have a 2nd compressor plumbed in as a backup. It's an Ingersall-Rand vertical 2-cylinder. A valve tree allows either compressor to supply the whole network.
But the main reason I moved the Dayton compressor in here is to get a little extra pressure in the pin router. I normally regulate the network at 110 psi, and out at the ends of the branches, it will be more like 100. But the tank pressure of the Dayton is 125, and now I have a straight short line, ahead of the main system regulator, right to the pin router. That extra 15 psi makes a big difference in the speed at which the pin router's spindle lifts up. Now it lifts in maybe 1.5 seconds vs 5 seconds before. That quickly adds up in time savings when running the pin router.
Here's the final setup, with the Dayton air compressor in the back, and the (also Dayton) dust collector off to the right.
The Big Green Machine is ready to start ploughing walnut and turning out Scroll Bass bodies! Note the Lipe Guitars sign up on the wall. That's the sign from Mike's shop that was down the hall. I put it up there in memory of him. He built a lot of guitars on this machine. And I'm sure he's up there chuckling watching me learn how to use it.
So I moved the compressor in from the hall, back inside my main shop, right next to the pin router. It also happens to be only a few feet from the electrical sub-panel for my shop. Here it is, moved into the general area. I took the opportunity to clean it up, drain the water out of the tank, and check the oil.
This is a nice compressor. It's a Dayton Speedaire series, a 3-cylinder radial pump. It's much quieter than your typical 2-cylinder inline compressors. I bought it about 5 years ago from another tenant here. It's served me very well, and I hope it will for many more years.
In its new location, it's still plumbed into my main air network, including the trunk line going down the hall. The network also branches over into the machine shop and into the spray booth. Plus I have a 2nd compressor plumbed in as a backup. It's an Ingersall-Rand vertical 2-cylinder. A valve tree allows either compressor to supply the whole network.
But the main reason I moved the Dayton compressor in here is to get a little extra pressure in the pin router. I normally regulate the network at 110 psi, and out at the ends of the branches, it will be more like 100. But the tank pressure of the Dayton is 125, and now I have a straight short line, ahead of the main system regulator, right to the pin router. That extra 15 psi makes a big difference in the speed at which the pin router's spindle lifts up. Now it lifts in maybe 1.5 seconds vs 5 seconds before. That quickly adds up in time savings when running the pin router.
Here's the final setup, with the Dayton air compressor in the back, and the (also Dayton) dust collector off to the right.
The Big Green Machine is ready to start ploughing walnut and turning out Scroll Bass bodies! Note the Lipe Guitars sign up on the wall. That's the sign from Mike's shop that was down the hall. I put it up there in memory of him. He built a lot of guitars on this machine. And I'm sure he's up there chuckling watching me learn how to use it.
Bruce, I commend your willingness to assist others in their endeavors. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself, "What about ME?" Kudos for rearranging your tools to better serve your own needs!
For any of you in the Los Angeles area who are dreaming of owning a big green pin router:
There's one listed on CraigsList now; look under Ventura County, Tools, Aldinger Overhead Router. Aldinger is an English manufacturer that I'm not familiar with. This machine appears to be from the 1940's. Looks to be in nice condition, fully operational. $750, in Valencia. Probably weighs 2000-2500 lbs. 3 HP motor, I believe it's single phase 220V. Comes with a transformer to convert it from 50hz to US 60hz.
You know you want it. I'm tempted, but I really don't need another big green pin router.
There's one listed on CraigsList now; look under Ventura County, Tools, Aldinger Overhead Router. Aldinger is an English manufacturer that I'm not familiar with. This machine appears to be from the 1940's. Looks to be in nice condition, fully operational. $750, in Valencia. Probably weighs 2000-2500 lbs. 3 HP motor, I believe it's single phase 220V. Comes with a transformer to convert it from 50hz to US 60hz.
You know you want it. I'm tempted, but I really don't need another big green pin router.
I just want a shop big enough that I could consider it. 
An update:
I did some work with the Big Green Machine this afternoon, making some changes to the Scroll Bass body tooling. The new setup of the air compressor and dust collector worked beautifully. These pictures were taken right after I finished routing. The big dust collector, with the new base scoop, sucked up probably 95% of the chips as it was cutting. I used the small hose to pull the last bits out of the routed part. When I was done, there was no cleanup of the machine or sweeping the floor. That's fantastic! You should have seen the mess this machine used to make when Mike was running it. Literally a 10' circle of chips on the floor, an inch deep.
Mounting the air compressor right there also made a big difference in operation. Now the spindle goes up and down in 1-2 seconds.
It was surprisingly quiet too. I wasn't wearing any hearing protection, and could easily talk over it. A few times, all three machines were running at the same time, and they didn't trip any breakers!
I'm getting to really like this machine. It's going to save me hours, increase my production, and make my life here more enjoyable. A big investment, but worth it.
I did some work with the Big Green Machine this afternoon, making some changes to the Scroll Bass body tooling. The new setup of the air compressor and dust collector worked beautifully. These pictures were taken right after I finished routing. The big dust collector, with the new base scoop, sucked up probably 95% of the chips as it was cutting. I used the small hose to pull the last bits out of the routed part. When I was done, there was no cleanup of the machine or sweeping the floor. That's fantastic! You should have seen the mess this machine used to make when Mike was running it. Literally a 10' circle of chips on the floor, an inch deep.
Mounting the air compressor right there also made a big difference in operation. Now the spindle goes up and down in 1-2 seconds.
It was surprisingly quiet too. I wasn't wearing any hearing protection, and could easily talk over it. A few times, all three machines were running at the same time, and they didn't trip any breakers!
I'm getting to really like this machine. It's going to save me hours, increase my production, and make my life here more enjoyable. A big investment, but worth it.
You may have seen it over on the Love Of Ampegs thread, but I've started production of walnut Scroll Bass bodies, using the Big Green Machine. It's working great! The new setup with the nearby air compressor and dust collector works very well. The problems with the depth stop wheel are solved. It now cuts pockets to depth repeatably within 0.010". And, overall, it's fast and comfortable to use. I'm liking it and becoming less intimidated by it.
Yes, pin routers were a main part of the woodworking industry through the 20th century. For anyone who mass-produced complex 2D shaped things from wood, the pin router was the most efficient machine. Furniture manufacturers, boatyards, cabinet shops and guitar makers all depended on them. Up until CNC machines came down in price.
It's been fun learning how to use this monster. I'm trying to see how old outdated machines can be adapted for use in small low-production shops like ours.
I'm liking this one enough that I want to get my two small pin routers up and running too. I'm thinking that it would be really cool to have one set up with a 1/4" bit, and the other with a 1/8" bit. All ready to do smaller parts, inlays, etc.
It's been fun learning how to use this monster. I'm trying to see how old outdated machines can be adapted for use in small low-production shops like ours.
I'm liking this one enough that I want to get my two small pin routers up and running too. I'm thinking that it would be really cool to have one set up with a 1/4" bit, and the other with a 1/8" bit. All ready to do smaller parts, inlays, etc.
Your smallest pin router is most likely way bigger than the Veritas pin router?
The Veritas overhead pin router arm is an interesting tool, but I don't know what anyone would use it for.
These are my small pin routers; I have two of them. They are sold as ShopMate and Shop Fox and a few other brands. Bench top, cast iron arm, standard router head, vertical slide powered by a pneumatic cylinder. They are light duty; they flex too much to cut things like body cavities with a 1/2" bit.
But I've learned a lot from working with the Big Green Machine. I'm going to work with these machines and see if they can be useful doing smaller routing with small bits.
But I've learned a lot from working with the Big Green Machine. I'm going to work with these machines and see if they can be useful doing smaller routing with small bits.
More of the continuous development of tooling for the big pin router:
I made up the Masking Plate for the AMB-2M Scroll Bass bodies. It's cut from a piece of 3/4" MDF, mounted on the AMB-2M Back routing fixture. This was the last piece of tooling I needed before starting the first real production batch of 3 AMB-2M walnut bodies.
Next up, while starting to do some of this production pin routing, I've noticed that maneuvering a pin router fixture around for a half hour is causing me some pain in my hands, from pushing continuously with my thumbs. I don't like that. It's reducing the thrill of pin routing!
I need to come up with improved handles. As an experiment, I quickly made up four rounded rectangular blocks from a chunk of roasted maple, and bolted them vertically onto the existing front and center flat handles.
And here I am, testing them out while routing the first of the walnut AMB-2M body backs.
The blocks on the center handles are kind of in the way and useless. I'll probably remove them.
The block handles at the front work pretty well. Steering the fixture around with the vertical handles eliminates the thumb strain and was comfortable overall. The position and geometry is about right. The blocks themselves aren't well shaped. I would probably get some callouses after a while. But they were just a quick test.
I'm going to get a pair of bicycle/motorcycle padded hand grips and try mounting them in place of the blocks. That might be the permanent solution.
Other than that, the Big Green Machine is working beautifully. Starting to build up a layer of chips in the bottom of the Super Sucker.
I made up the Masking Plate for the AMB-2M Scroll Bass bodies. It's cut from a piece of 3/4" MDF, mounted on the AMB-2M Back routing fixture. This was the last piece of tooling I needed before starting the first real production batch of 3 AMB-2M walnut bodies.
Next up, while starting to do some of this production pin routing, I've noticed that maneuvering a pin router fixture around for a half hour is causing me some pain in my hands, from pushing continuously with my thumbs. I don't like that. It's reducing the thrill of pin routing!
I need to come up with improved handles. As an experiment, I quickly made up four rounded rectangular blocks from a chunk of roasted maple, and bolted them vertically onto the existing front and center flat handles.
And here I am, testing them out while routing the first of the walnut AMB-2M body backs.
The blocks on the center handles are kind of in the way and useless. I'll probably remove them.
The block handles at the front work pretty well. Steering the fixture around with the vertical handles eliminates the thumb strain and was comfortable overall. The position and geometry is about right. The blocks themselves aren't well shaped. I would probably get some callouses after a while. But they were just a quick test.
I'm going to get a pair of bicycle/motorcycle padded hand grips and try mounting them in place of the blocks. That might be the permanent solution.
Other than that, the Big Green Machine is working beautifully. Starting to build up a layer of chips in the bottom of the Super Sucker.
Maybe something pistol-grip shaped? Or shaped like the grip on a hammer, with a bump to fit against your palm? Having gripped motorcycle grips for many hours I've never found them ergonomic, the perfect cylinder shape means your not-perfect hand always has pressure points.
And blisters.
I was thinking the little side handles for grinders. Put inserts in the wood and just screw them in.
But after looking at them, they would need a collar under them for support. But that's something Bruce could whip up in about 8 sec.
I was thinking the little side handles for grinders. Put inserts in the wood and just screw them in.
But after looking at them, they would need a collar under them for support. But that's something Bruce could whip up in about 8 sec.
