Playing for free as "good marketing"?

[robassable]

I think we completely agree - but differently.
My approach is to not play in that market segment. Up your game! Make whatever changes you need to make to not be in competition with the "free beer" bands. It may take a little while. It make take some effort.

My band is not setting the world on fire by any stretch of the imagination - but we don't play for $100 a man and free beer bands don't scare me at all. We also do not target the House of Suds gigs.

(You know, we've drifted way off topic for this thread. Sorry OP!)

Yes, The first step to upping your game (aside from becoming an accomplished player of course) is to set a personal pay standard and if you are offered less simply refuse the gig. For the past 25 years or so, unless for a charity or benefit, I won't take the gig unless it pays at least 100 bucks, which has taken me mostly out of the bar band scene. However, as both an electric and upright player, playing numerous genres of music, I have been fortunate that in my locale there are a number of resorts with a fairly substantial pay scale that have kept me plenty busy.

So again, I agree with you, but do think our conversation about principles, setting personal standards, "upping the game" as you say, is completely applicable to the OP topic.

 

[ebo]

I don't reply to too many posts because I'm just not that interested in helping determine what the favorite color is for basses or such silliness. This topic is spot on and affects every gigging musician. Many good points have been made. Not all bars are alike and we all have a mom and pop bar we'd do anything for if necessary. One person said we won't be going back to normal, there will be a new normal. Absolutely. What the new normal will be is what we all have to help determine, and playing for free shouldn't be the new normal, even short term. Bars work off percentages, sales minus product cost minus overhead minus wages etc equal some profit percentage. If income is down, overhead or some other expense has to go down as well to maintain the same profit. It's just business 101. We as bands can't expect a larger percentage of a shrinking pie by keeping our cut the same. Unless the bar pays a percentage of the bar, then we will get what we get. 90% of the places I play are no cover charge. That might change and the cost of the band might pivot to the end user, the customer. We're all in this together. Bars are hurting, bands are hurting (and individual band members might now be unemployed) and the patrons all have their story. They may not drink as much when they go out, further lowering profits. This I know, live music is essential and must continue and how musicians get paid and how much is always a moving target. The target must never be zero. Be open to cover charges where there weren't before, and be willing to help bring bodies in the door to make money. Someone said don't decrease your price, add value. It's a business whether we see it that way or not. Grow the business, don't shrink it.

 

[shastaband]

Why should any cover band get paid for playing music that they didn't write?

So symphony musicians shouldn't get paid because they didn't write the music they play?

 

[LBS-bass]

+1 here. Pre-pandemic, most clubs/bars around here offer no guaranteed money. Operative words are "... clubs/bars". Generally it is tip jar, play for a percentage of the door (minus $ for the sound tech if FOH and monitors are provided by the venue) or possibly just a certain tab for band food and/or drink. Depending on the venue, a band may play from a 2 to 4 hour time slot. Some venues do multi-band bills and the money that may be available generally comes from the door receipts and splits have to be "negotiated" at the end of the night.

It seems that local players, that have been around for years and played in bands that have achieved local notoriety, end up dominating the market by being in several bands. Some bands are "pop-up" or short duration, others stand the test of time and public acceptance. In essence, the individual performer/musician "brands" their abilities and the local population of them shares their talents and captures the local market. New players, or those outside of that circle of influence, have a tough time breaking in. New bands have a tough time breaking in unless they include players of local notoriety.

Perhaps the results of the pandemic "lay off" will allow for a change to that paradigm. It may be a good bet that quite a lot will change as a result of it, though.

This sounds exactly like the scene here where I live. I am not from around here, as they say, and have had to work hard to break into the scene for whatever it might be worth. The old hands are a tight little circle and you can get near them, but the same people get first call for most of the jobs. I got lucky a few times and became associated with a few established musicians here, so I have some friends who look out for me as they are able, but it took three years to get to the point at which I was starting to work steadily, and then along came COVID.

How it shakes out after this, nobody knows. But, as I said earlier in the thread, the places that have taken good care of me will get back whatever I can give in the form of fundraising help, etc. I am not a big fan of playing for free but I do take care of the people who take care of me and my friends.

 

[mark roberts]

Sounds like Nashville or Austin - I wouldn't have thought Lawrence!

There are three venues in Lawrence that have guarantees on a semi-regular basis. One caters to mainly local acts and the occasional regional travel-through and pays an amount that local act (larger metropolitan Kansas City) performers may make $50-$60 each for 3 to 4 hour gig. The other two (considered marquee venues nationally) may pay some sort of guarantee depending on the draw power of the regional/national act. Other spiffs are negotiated on a case by case basis with a lot of forbears. There are other venues in Lawrence. Many offer opportunities to acoustic solo, duo, etc...operative word "acoustic" for both cover and original work. Not so much for electric bassists. Keep your eyes and ears on a particular rising type of phenomenon in the USA...not necessarily new, by any means, but seeming to displace many other types of music arts...no complaints, but attractive ladies who sing well and play from ok to incredible for acoustic shows. A lot of newer, regular music venues in Lawrence are not the size or nature to accommodate big-time productions. Those productions only happen yearly and when the city contributes to the funding.

 

[6stringtheorist]

Hey guys, this is a 'Hot' topic for sure and I'd like to weigh in on how I think we got to where we are today in terms of the piss-poor money club bands are paid. My band experience goes back 40 years playing 'live' in the Pacific Northwest and I actually made the most money playing 'reggae music' in the 80's and 90's than anything else. There was a big demand for 'GROOVE' music like Latin Jazz, Afro-beat and especially Reggae sounds.

My main band on average was paid $1500-$2000 cash for a Saturday night in any large downtown or waterfront club. A weekend out of town for fri sat sun shows was a flat $2500 with meals and lodging provided at say a ski resort or coastal town. And this was year round money. What happened was bar owners saw the rise of party DJ's and karaoke machines.

They saw how CHEAP$ this kind of KRAP 'entertainment' could be brought in and that began the immediate decline of 'live' music bands in Seattle. The same places we made good money now we had to compete with karaoke machines and a smokin' band was lucky to get $500-600 for Sat night and playing out of town forget it!

This is how we got to where we are now. For God's sake guys please don't play for free! it just perpetuates the whole problem. We all know how much more exciting a great live band is than listening to a drunk idiot 'singing' along to an MP3. Stand up for yourself and SELL your band's greatness and just maybe we can turn this around!

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Hey guys, this is a 'Hot' topic for sure and I'd like to weigh in on how I think we got to where we are today in terms of the piss-poor money club bands are paid. My band experience goes back 40 years playing 'live' in the Pacific Northwest and I actually made the most money playing 'reggae music' in the 80's and 90's than anything else. There was a big demand for 'GROOVE' music like Latin Jazz, Afro-beat and especially Reggae sounds.

My main band on average was paid $1500-$2000 cash for a Saturday night in any large downtown or waterfront club. A weekend out of town for fri sat sun shows was a flat $2500 with meals and lodging provided at say a ski resort or coastal town. And this was year round money. What happened was bar owners saw the rise of party DJ's and karaoke machines.

They saw how CHEAP$ this kind of KRAP 'entertainment' could be brought in and that began the immediate decline of 'live' music bands in Seattle. The same places we made good money now we had to compete with karaoke machines and a smokin' band was lucky to get $500-600 for Sat night and playing out of town forget it!

This is how we got to where we are now. For God's sake guys please don't play for free! it just perpetuates the whole problem. We all know how much more exciting a great live band is than listening to a drunk idiot 'singing' along to an MP3. Stand up for yourself and SELL your band's greatness and just maybe we can turn this around!

I think times have changed too. You have to sell a ton of drinks to cover a $2000 band and people are drinking way less now because nobody wants a DUI/DWI, sports has really stepped up their saturation of entertainment and big screen TVs are cheap.

 

[6stringtheorist]

I think times have changed too. You have to sell a ton of drinks to cover a $2000 band and people are drinking way less now because nobody wants a DUI/DWI, sports has really stepped up their saturation of entertainment and big screen TVs are cheap.

It is a different world now with lots of other 'distractions' as you mention BUT a great band will still create a 'buzz' and draw 'em in!

 

[6stringtheorist]

This sounds exactly like the scene here where I live. I am not from around here, as they say, and have had to work hard to break into the scene for whatever it might be worth. The old hands are a tight little circle and you can get near them, but the same people get first call for most of the jobs. I got lucky a few times and became associated with a few established musicians here, so I have some friends who look out for me as they are able, but it took three years to get to the point at which I was starting to work steadily, and then along came COVID.

How it shakes out after this, nobody knows. But, as I said earlier in the thread, the places that have taken good care of me will get back whatever I can give in the form of fundraising help, etc. I am not a big fan of playing for free but I do take care of the people who take care of me and my friends.

Your situation with the 'tight circle' of same players getting the gigs is the same here in regards to the local jazz scene but lots of places are beginning to bring back 'live jam' nights and that's how you get your band in the door for a paying gig if you don't 'suck ass' that is LOL!

 

[6stringtheorist]

I don't reply to too many posts because I'm just not that interested in helping determine what the favorite color is for basses or such silliness. This topic is spot on and affects every gigging musician. Many good points have been made. Not all bars are alike and we all have a mom and pop bar we'd do anything for if necessary. One person said we won't be going back to normal, there will be a new normal. Absolutely. What the new normal will be is what we all have to help determine, and playing for free shouldn't be the new normal, even short term. Bars work off percentages, sales minus product cost minus overhead minus wages etc equal some profit percentage. If income is down, overhead or some other expense has to go down as well to maintain the same profit. It's just business 101. We as bands can't expect a larger percentage of a shrinking pie by keeping our cut the same. Unless the bar pays a percentage of the bar, then we will get what we get. 90% of the places I play are no cover charge. That might change and the cost of the band might pivot to the end user, the customer. We're all in this together. Bars are hurting, bands are hurting (and individual band members might now be unemployed) and the patrons all have their story. They may not drink as much when they go out, further lowering profits. This I know, live music is essential and must continue and how musicians get paid and how much is always a moving target. The target must never be zero. Be open to cover charges where there weren't before, and be willing to help bring bodies in the door to make money. Someone said don't decrease your price, add value. It's a business whether we see it that way or not. Grow the business, don't shrink it.

Alot of places around the Northwest have started bringing back 'live jam' nights because folks are sick and tired of the boring stupidity of listening to a drunk idiot singing 'We Are The Champions'

 

[MultiScaleMale]

It is a different world now with lots of other 'distractions' as you mention BUT a great band will still create a 'buzz' and draw 'em in!

Every area is different, but around here, you're more likely to draw people to a lakefront / park concert hosted by local government or a retail management company than hearing about a band playing in a bar. Even if you could guarantee 100% fire code capacity, the sweet spot to hire a band is around $300-500. Even if you could get The Rolling Stones for $3000, it wouldn't make sense financially. Well, that particular case would, but you know what I mean. I really can't remember the last time that I went to a bar to hear a particular band. And I like music. Bars? Not so much. Areas with a lot of tourism would be different.

 

[6stringtheorist]

Every area is different, but around here, you're more likely to draw people to a lakefront / park concert hosted by local government or a retail management company than hearing about a band playing in a bar. Even if you could guarantee 100% fire code capacity, the sweet spot to hire a band is around $300-500. Even if you could get The Rolling Stones for $3000, it wouldn't make sense financially. Well, that particular case would, but you know what I mean. I really can't remember the last time that I went to a bar to hear a particular band. And I like music. Bars? Not so much. Areas with a lot of tourism would be different.

I think the local area is crucial to what kind of entertainment you get. Seattle is a big sea-port with a large army and navy presence and those guys want to seriously party when they get shore leave and we have a waterfront area called PIONEER SQUARE next to our sports stadiums and the clubs there are packed after any sports event any night of the week is like a New Year's Eve

 

[Guild B301]

i played for living for a long time, and i played for a living off-and-on and/or part-time for a long time. i'm retired now. when i was 'in it' there were no pandemics.
then: the "principle" helped everyone.
now: i don't know, i'm not sure.

i've told all of the young cats: "always get paid --- you're 'working' your much needed/wanted skills." but in my position (retired) and my condition (old) i could easily 'donate' and view it as the best for me, personally ('just play'). win/win for me. but i play with cats who are younger than me and they think they're something (they are!). however, as a competitive sort: i've 'underbid' a bunch of worthy folks from time-to-time, in the past, just to get a longer-term advantage in a particular "market" and i've found that to be useful. playing for free (in the 'beginning') could very well be a good angle for the longer term. pretending that that perspective is an easy 'binary' is naive --- i'd outbid you in a heartbeat and get the opportunity to play for the fans you want and need for the long term! something to think about.

per the OP: it's not "either/or." there are advantages to both. good luck with being flexible!



lfmn16
nice to see you.

edit for lfmn

With bars and clubs, (from their side), its all about which band causes the patrons to buy more booze. That's where they make their money. So, whoever can get them to do that, is who will be booked again. And the more you are booked, the more "good marketing" you have. It has nothing to do with how good you play. As a matter of fact, maybe if you play really badly, you'll cause them to drink more.

 

[6stringtheorist]

With bars and clubs, (from their side), its all about which band causes the patrons to buy more booze. That's where they make their money. So, whoever can get them to do that, is who will be booked again. And the more you are booked, the more "good marketing" you have. It has nothing to do with how good you play. As a matter of fact, maybe if you play really badly, you'll cause them to drink more.

I've found it also has to do with how many young ladies show up! If a band is known to draw the 'hotties' then the single guys will show up in droves and buy the drinks to try to get the girls drunk and then with any luck . . . . . well you get the idea!

 

[Toneguy66]

If you're doing this as a hobby and do it cheap, all you'll do is take money from the cats who have been out of work for months who are trying to feed their families. No way anyone should play for charity that is t a big enough name in their market to draw enough people to make it worth that Charity's time I've never seen a bar that was a 501(c).

 

[36hz]

Twitch, Mixer, YouTube, Facebook streaming/video, Twitter, Instagram, etc.

Those are the free content avenues I'd use.

The rest is you pay.

And these guys ARNT? ripping off musicians

 

[36hz]

You guys need to watch Twitch streamers take in follows and cash.

They're the new rappers, gamers that get paid in real time are what kids aspire to be now.

I don't understand how musicians are so slow discovering new mediums. I guess interests aren't as broad.

EXACTLY!

 

[36hz]

They saw how CHEAP$ this kind of KRAP 'entertainment' could be brought in and that began the immediate decline of 'live' music bands in Seattle. The same places we made good money now we had to compete with karaoke machines and a smokin' band was lucky to get $500-600 for Sat night and playing out of town forget it!

This is how we got to where we are now. For God's sake guys please don't play for free! it just perpetuates the whole problem. We all know how much more exciting a great live band is than listening to a drunk idiot 'singing' along to an MP3. Stand up for yourself and SELL your band's greatness and just maybe we can turn this around!

With bars and clubs, (from their side), its all about which band causes the patrons to buy more booze. That's where they make their money. So, whoever can get them to do that, is who will be booked again. And the more you are booked, the more "good marketing" you have. It has nothing to do with how good you play. As a matter of fact, maybe if you play really badly, you'll cause them to drink more.

thats me --the Evil Empire

 

[Loring]

View attachment 3806908

thats me --the Evil Empire

I'd come see your stage show lol

 

[somebrains]

EXACTLY!

I look in on Tpain playing call of duty when he is recording or on tour.

He's not exactly maximizing efforts to jump to a new medium but he's having fun and trying.

YouTube is old hat, but it spawned kids like Bieber and those gorls that bought mansions and Ferraris.

And these guys ARNT? ripping off musicians

I'm sorry, copyright strikes are easy to get or set on platforms.

You would hope someone big was using music you owned bc the income shifts to the owner.

Pen and ink or digital artists have a harder time than musicians.