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playing in key?

K

kidd_slasher

Jul 14, 2011
4
1
#1
hey guys. i`ve been lurking here for a couple of months now and just registered to ask you all this. i know, my username is kinda strange but i have been using for maybe 10 years now i think. you can just call me kidd if you want.

enough for the introduction and to my question.

i`ve been playing for almost a year now using tabs and sheet music and stuff and was thinking i should try learn to play by ear. was reading through the threads for tips and a lot of you guys suggest to know the key of the song because then you will know where to go from there. now, i know my basic stuff, i.e the notes on the fretboard, scales, simple chords and etc. but when i look at some of the music sheets i have, some of them say the song is for example in the key of c, and start with c and then go to f and etc. and some say the song is in the key of a, but start with a d:confused:

so, what i really want to know is what is the meaning of playing in key.


p/s: sorry for the wall of text and if my english is weird. i`m not a native speaker. and if a thread about this already exist, can someone post a link? tried searching for it but could not find it. or is this thing is really a basic that EVERYBODY should know which i am not aware of...
 
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#2
1. You need a teacher.

2. The internet is full of as much misinformation as valid information. It's difficult to tell the difference; some people spew the misinformation with so much conviction that it's easy to believe.

3. While there isn't any one book that encompasses everything you need to know, I recommend Harmony and Theory: A Comprehensive Source for All Musicians (Essential Concepts (Musicians Institute).) by Carl Schroeder and Keith Wyatt.

4. Post your question in the "Ask Anthony Wellington" section. He's an excellent teacher and can explain the answer in a way that is easy to understand.
 
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#4
This is a subject too big to be covered in a single post. I highly recommend that you get a book or a teacher and learn music theory.

But, here's a small example:
If you're in the key of C major and you start on an F you're beginning the song on the IV chord. If you don't understand that then you have some reading to do.

Not to be condescending... just saying it's a BIG subject. And it's absolutely worth knowing. You'll be extremely happy you took the time to learn it.
 
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#5
A 'key' usually refers to a scale from which the chords are built. To understand all this and other questions you might have, you DO need to get in touch with a teacher or some text concerning music theory. As you do so, remember that this is an art not a science. So, in your quest to understand the workings and mechanics of music, you'll find a number of examples that will, more or less, not fall in line with the 'rules' that you learn. Its OK. You're safe. Music theory is a darn good suggestion of what to expect, not a road map of what is. Good luck. It's a great journey.
 
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#6
thanks for the reply guys

@jmac: i dont think i can manage a teacher, for now at least because im still in college, but i`ll try check that book first

@journey55: thanks. if that`s true, than i learn something today

@monkeybass & basschuck: i always make a rule of thumb to play the root, third or fifth of any given key because thats what make a chord, right? of course it wont be the exact sound but i eventually will get to the right note, or at least as close as possible if that makes sense by trial and error, but like basschuck says, sometimes they dont follow the rules i learnt. heck i might even learning the wrong rules to begin with, lol.

i think i am a theory player because i need to know the reasoning to something to produce something, and i think i have learn quite alot ( yes, its really nothing compared to you guys here ) when i started learning blues using ed friedland blues bass book. now i can make and play simple progression or lines if you want to call it instead of just reading the tabs blindly like when i first started.

well, thanks for your answers and suggestion though. i`ll definitely check them out.
 
#8
Short answer -- always misses the mark, however, here goes......

Key - certain scale notes that are used to produce a set of chords that are made from that scale. As the chords and the melody share the same notes they harmonize each other. The bass line and the melody line sound good together.

So, including myself, some look upon key as being a range of sound. I like to sing in the key of D. Why? I can hit all the low notes and also get the high notes if I stay in the range of D. The purest consider this all wrong and will take me to task for this. They object to the word "range". Ask yourself why do some vocalists ask that the song be played in A and others want the same song be played in E? Short answer; gals like the key of A and males with bass voices like the key of E. I like D. Johnny Cash wanted E.

So when I write a song the first thing I do is decide who will be singing this song and I then write it in a key they will like to sing it in. Plus knowing what notes and chords are in that key sure make it simpler when I try and get the melody line and the chord line sharing notes and harmonize each other.

Stay in key/scale for the first draft then go out if you think it adds to the song. Just be back in key to end the song.

Now that and $1.37 will get you a cup of coffee in Mineola, Texas.
 
#9
@dvh: ahh, yes. that must have slipped my mind because i always play root, third, and fifth if im just fooling around the fretboard and sounds like a bassline to me. for example, when i play root, third, fifth and with the fifth as the root play the third, fifth and so on to practice moving my hands all over the fretboard, it sounds nice ands just flows to me. whereas if i say play root, third and forth, the forth always sounds out of place to me and lost it unless i play it root, third, fifth with the forth as the root if that makes any sense...

@MalcolmAmos: please bear with me here. lets just say the song is in the key of A, so according to the A major scale, that will give me A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A octave as my notes, and if the song feels slightly higher i can go to maybe B, C# or D, and if if the song feels slightly lower than A, then i maybe can go to the G#, F# in the lower side. would this be a good explanation for a noob like me about playing in the key of A?
 
#10
What Key?

You need to learn the Nashville Number System, I'm sure Malcolm or Roy could give you a rundown.

As a bassist it a good idea to learn that how each chord in a song relates to the scale.

A blues the chords would be:

A / A / A / A
D / D/ A / A
E/ E/ D / D
A / A / E / E

Now work out where abouts these Chords fall in the scale pattern A=1 B=2 etc.

You can apply this to any song, so when someone says "It's a blues in D" what chords would you play?
 
#11
kidd_slasher said:
: please bear with me here. lets just say the song is in the key of A, so according to the A major scale, that will give me A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A octave as my notes, and if the song feels slightly higher i can go to maybe B, C# or D, and if if the song feels slightly lower than A, then i maybe can go to the G#, F# in the lower side. would this be a good explanation for a noob like me about playing in the key of A?
Click to expand...
I think I see what you are saying. If you do not like A, yes go to something else.

The thing about playing in keys if everyone in the band play from the same key - use the same set of notes and chords that are made from each other - they will sound good together. If the song is in the key of G and the solo instruments are playing the melody notes from the G scale and the harmony instruments (Rhythm Guitar, Bass, etc.) are playing the chords in the key of G we all sound good together. However if I for some reason thought the song was to be played in the key of A and I did so, it would sound bad - my ear would tell me something is wrong and I'd probably lean over and ask one of the guys; "What key are we in"?

I love charts - here is the major and natural minor scale chart. Keys start with the scale, I'll talk about how the chords come into the picture after this scale chart.

Major Scale Chart
C D E F G A B...............Notice the C scale has no Sharps
G A B C D E F#.............and the G scale has one, the F#
D E F# G A B C#...........and the D scale keeps the F# and
A B C# D E F# G#.........adds the C#. Then the A scale keeps
E F# G# A B C# D#.......everything and adds the G#. See how
B C# D# E F# G# A#.....it builds on it's self.
F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
F G A Bb C D E.............Look what happens with the flat scales
Bb C D Eb F G A...........F has one the Bb, then the Bb scale keeps
Eb F G Ab Bb C D.........it's self and adds the the Eb. Same thing
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G.......the sharp scales did...
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb
Memory pegs:
See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#haos. Order of the scales with sharps.
Fat cats go down alleys eating birds. Order of the sharps.
Farmer brown eats apple dumplings greasily cooked. Order of the scales with flats.
The key signature is showing three sharps. What scale has three sharps? C has none, G has one, D has two, A has three. Which sharps? Fat = F#, Cat = C# and Go = G# so the A major scale has three sharps, F#, C# and G#.

Natural Minor Scale Chart
A B C D E F G ................Notice how the 6th column of the
E F# G A B C D................Major scale becomes the 1st column
B C# D E F# G A..............in the minor scale and how the 7th
F# G# A B C# D E............column of the Major scale is now the
C# D# E F# G# A B..........2nd column in the minor scale. And
G# A# B C# D# E F#........yep, the 1st column in the Major scale
D# E# F# G# A# B C#......is now the 3rd column, etc. etc.
A# B# C# D# E# F# G#....Ask your self why? Hint, think relative minor.
D E F G A Bb C
G A Bb C D Eb F
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab
Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb

The chords for each scale are built by stacking 3rds. Take a scale - how about C.
C, D, E, F, G, A, B start on C and use every other note.
C chord = C E G
The Cmaj7 chord would add the B for C E G B. And why is that the Cmaj7 chord? A Cmaj7 chord is made of the R-3-5-7 intervals of the C scale.
Next chord in the key would start with the D.
D F A C and that gives you a Dm7 chord. Neat thing about that is the D major scale is D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# and you came up with D F A C - yep you flatted the F# and the C# and now have the R-b3-5-b7 spelling for a Dm7 chord. Great thing about stacking 3rds - when you stack the scales notes in 3rds the correct major and minor chords automatically place themselves like they should. You will end up with 3 major chords, 3 minor chords and 1 diminished chord.

Play with that, see where it takes you.

Have fun.
 
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#12
OK in case you are still interested. Now let's see how we could use all that.

Writing a song or a bass line gets easier if we pick one key and use those notes and chords. Remember in an earlier post I said I sing in D. Makes since to write using the notes and chords from the key of D.

D scale = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#
Stacking 3rds we get these chords:
D-F#-A-C# and as that is the R-3-5-7 of the D major scale the 3 tells me this is going to be a major chord. The 7 tells me this is going to be a major seventh and the 5 tells me this is not a diminished or augmented chord, thus it is a Dmaj7 chord.

Continue stacking with the E and we get:
E-G-B-D now go look up the E major scale and we find it will have an G# and a D# - and our next chord has a G and a D so we flatted those two notes to come up with R-b3-5-b7. The b3 tells me this is a minor chord and the b7 tells me this is a minor seventh. The 5 being a natural 5, I know this is not going to be an augmented or diminished chord, so drum roll, the next chord in the key of D is an Em7 chord. Keep going...

D scale = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# and the chords are:
Dmaj7 - Em7 - F#m7 - Gmaj7 - A7 - Bm7 - C#dim (several ways of writing that diminished chord - the b3 is understood as all diminished chords have a b3, b5 and probably a b7, R-b3-b5-b7. A diminished tritone will be R-b3-b5 then a 1/2 diminished chord would include the b7 - R-b3-b5-b7 and a full diminished chord would be R-b3-b5-bb7.) You may see it written as Bm7b5. If it was easy everybody would be a musician.

OK melody notes. As the key of D is a major key use the major pentatonic for your melody notes. Major pentatonic will have the 1-2-3-5-6 degrees of the scale. Those five notes will build thousands of melodies. Get a little creative don't just play them in pentatonic order. Here is a little something on the different ways the minor pentatonic could be used. Link Removed Now you can if you like use the chord's pentatonic to gather your melody notes, i.e. over the D chord use the D major pentatonic then over the G chord use the G major pentatonic for melody notes over the G chord, etc. etc.

OK now that we have the chords in the key of D which one will we use? Grab a cookie cutter chord progression and use that. Cookie cutter chord progressions have written thousands of songs. Here are a few major cookie cutter chord progressions:

I-IV-V7- I (Upper case tell you the chord will be a major chord and lower case will be minor chords.)
I-vi-IV-V7-I This is the old ice cream progression used in early rock.
I-vi-ii-V7-I This is just one I like the sound.
ii-V7-I This is the classic jazz progression
I-viidim-iii-vi-ii-V7-I This is the classic turn-a-round progression.

Your verse will probably have 4 lines of lyrics. Have one complete progressions in the first two lines, for example:
Start with the I chord and move to the IV near the end of the first line of the verse. Continue into the second line with the IV chord and near the end of the second line bring in the climax V7 chord and then quickly end the second line back with the I tonic chord. Repeat that same progression in the next two lines. This gives you two V-I cadences in every four line verse.

Pick one key and use those notes and chords.

Which notes of the chord need to be in your bass line? Good question. Start with just the root. Then use root and eight. Then throw in the 5. R-5-8-5 and when this is comfortable explore throwing in the correct 3 and 7. The root, five, eight with the correct 3 and 7 have written a lot of bass lines.

All that will get you a pretty good first draft. Is there more? Sure.

I don't think we ever got around to talking about how you know what key a song is in. Couple of ways. If you are looking at sheet music hopefully it will give you a key signature, i.e. nothing shown you can assume it's in C as C has no sharps or flats. If you see ### or three sharps what key has three sharps? A and F#m. Look at your scale chart I gave you. If you only have tab or fake chord see what chord the music ends with. If it starts and ends with the same chord and or note you can assume that is your key. If you only have a CD or DVD then you listen for the tonal center. How? Listen to what is playing and run your G string up the neck. When what is being played on the CD and what you are doing on your G string come into sync you've found the tonal center, thus the key. Look down and see what note that happened on. That's your key.

Have fun.
 
#14
When a song is in a certain key, it means the key is the tonal center of the piece.

If you play in C Major, you will play the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B. (You can use notes other than these, but that is a leap into another step)

What the scale does is outline the notes used in the chord progression of key/quality. (essentially)

That seems vague, so let me further explain.

When you have a scale, let us say major. There is a certain pattern of chords, and chord qualities used. The Major pattern consists of
Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished, Major

Major, minor, and Diminished (there are others, but this first) are called chord qualities. They describe the sound of which is played. Any key can be played as any chord, but not all those chords fit into a scale or progression.

So let me show you something cool. If you play in C Major, you will only (for the time being) use the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B (refer to the comment by MalcomAmos for a list of scales and how they change, via the circle of fifths)

The key, is C in Major, the chord is C E G
The second note is d, its corresponding chord to the C Major pattern is d minor. (check out that bit on chord qualities [Major, min, min etc])

So, here it is in a nutshell
C E G
D F A
E G B
F A C
G B D
A C E
B D F

Those are all the basic triads needed to play in the key of C.

So when you see the F chord in a piece that is in the key of C, it means you are playing the Fourth. (C = 1, d =2, e = 3, F = 4).

When making chord progressions (One chord into another) depending on the quality of the scale, you will arrange these chords in a certain order. (You do not HAVE to follow these rules of theory, but trust me, its well worth it)

Instead of having to explain things in a haphazard fashion in this thread, let me direct you to a thread I wrote. It talks about chords, scales, and the fretboard. Feel free to ask any questions

Link: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/fretboard-logic-via-intervals-scales-chords-your-one-spot-787175/
 
#15
This is very enlightening............However I just found this video and text tutorial about finding the key of a song. However this is just the first part, I am waiting for the second part of the tutorial. Invalid Link Removed
 
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#16
charneopiko said:
This is very enlightening............However I just found this video and text tutorial about finding the key of a song. However this is just the first part, I am waiting for the second part of the tutorial. Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...
First I think from your post this string is once again active - so - what he is saying is listen to what is being done and find the root on your fretboard.

Here is an easier way. Listen to the song and then walk your G string up the fretboard one fret at a time, when what the song is doing and what you are doing sounds good together you have found the tonal center of the song. Look down on your fretboard and see what note this happened on. That note is the name of the song's scale. Once you have the correct scale, finding the chords made from that scale, aka, the key - and then using those chords to build a chord progression, is the next step.

The ole I-IV-V progression has written a zillion songs. Might start there.

Good luck.
 
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#18
jmac said:
While there isn't any one book that encompasses everything you need to know, I recommend Harmony and Theory: A Comprehensive Source for All Musicians (Essential Concepts (Musicians Institute).) by Carl Schroeder and Keith Wyatt.
Click to expand...
Great book. I'm mostly self-taught, but I did have the advantage of a high school music theory course, which focused on classical music theory. This book focuses on practical pop music theory.
Learning to play by ear is an important skill, and knowing a little theory helps to make sense of what you're hearing.
I also recommend learning songs by ear, and to do that, I recommend loop and slow down software. There are several threads on that topic.
Even better, learn songs by ear and transcribe them. By this, I mean actually notate them. That closes the loop between notation and using your ears.
 
#19
dvh said:
A chord is any combination of three or more notes played together.

As a bass player, sevenths are very usually more useful than fifths for outlining a chord. (i.e., root-third-seventh). Note: USUALLY
Click to expand...
I find the opposite to be true, 7ths are problematic unless used carefully in context. I'm a root-third-fifth guy. Rock and blues, not so much jazz yet. ;)
 
#20
MonkeyBass said:
This is a subject too big to be covered in a single post. I highly recommend that you get a book or a teacher and learn music theory.

But, here's a small example:
If you're in the key of C major and you start on an F you're beginning the song on the IV chord. If you don't understand that then you have some reading to do.

Not to be condescending... just saying it's a BIG subject. And it's absolutely worth knowing. You'll be extremely happy you took the time to learn it.
Click to expand...
Don't assume the note being played is the root of a chord. In the key of C, that F could easily be the 3rd of the ii chord (Dm), or even the 7th of the V7 (G7).

But as @bholder said, using a 7th to outline a chord isn't nearly as common as using the root or 3rd.

OP: Start here (www.musictheory.net) to understand keys, chords and intervals. Once you get a handle on those concepts, it should be apparent which notes go where in a song.
 

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