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Double Bass Playing off beat

Sep 24, 2011
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Hi all
I don't usually have troubles with synchopation, or playing off beat at a moderate speed, but I get tripped when the tempo is much faster and there is a lot of other things going on (case in point attached, from Romeo and Juliet). Practicing with metronome is one option, albeit you have the constant beat helping. I have also downloaded a couple of loops to keep me honest. However are there any other useful techniques that can be used? Sometimes you just have to nai it without letting what else is going on, I think this is what I need to get my head around!
Regards to all
 

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Learning to be proactive (if that's the right word) with the rhythm is a learned skill. If you're counting, you're late. Listening to what's going on around you is key. It might be helpful to really see what that looks like. Notice how behind the basses are in the recording.
 
Hi all
I don't usually have troubles with synchopation, or playing off beat at a moderate speed, but I get tripped when the tempo is much faster and there is a lot of other things going on (case in point attached, from Romeo and Juliet). Practicing with metronome is one option, albeit you have the constant beat helping. I have also downloaded a couple of loops to keep me honest. However are there any other useful techniques that can be used? Sometimes you just have to nai it without letting what else is going on, I think this is what I need to get my head around!
Regards to all

This is a common problem...and not just for bass players. In my experience, French horns probably deal with this as much as anyone, and not always successfully.

IMHO the primary source of the problem is propagation delay. It takes time for sound to travel a given distance. Since an orchestra is spread out over a large space, the duration of propagation delay causes problems with timing. If you play with the sound you hear, frequently you are too late. The timing errors become more problematic as the tempo increases because the interval between beats gets shorter--AFAIK, the absolute error remains the same, but the relative error gets higher.

AFAIK the only way to deal with this is to have a really solid internal clock and keep your eye on the conductor's stick. You have to properly interpret where the conductor is placing the ictus, and then use internal subdivisions to properly place the upbeats, rather than relying on your ears.

To make matters worse, you usually have to push the beat a bit to be on time. This is because it takes time for your sound to travel from you position to the conductor's ears. So if you are not a little bit ahead, the conductor will perceive you as dragging.

Practicing with a metronome may help you deal with the extreme levels of rhythmic tension that can be required. In other words, you practice playing ahead of the click until you become relatively comfortable with significant rhythmic tension.

IMHO you need to practice a range of different rhythmic tensions. The idea is to hold the amount of tension constant, but you need to be comfortable with a little tension, a lot of tension, or any amount between the extremes. My point here is that practicing with the metronome is how you develop the ability to deal with rythmic tension. But the real-world experience will vary from situation to situation, so don't practice only one way.

Is it possible to do this perfectly all the time? No. But it should be possible for you to do it better more often.

Good luck!
 
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i think the goal ultimately is to make your off beat playing feel and sound as natural as your on beat playing. this is a spontaneous suggestion, but maybe when practicing, try alternating between playing those pizzes on the beat for a few bars, then switch to off the beat. when i do off beat stuff like this, generally i'll only "feel" the empty down beat, then play my off beat notes "as though they are on the beat" - that is, with the same feeling, just displaced an eighth note in this case.
 
I would walk around the house singing um-cha-um-cha-um-cha............increasing gradually up to tempo. Or chomping your teeth together (gently) on the beat and cha as the release. Doing this sort of thing helps me relax, ie vocalising, vocalising and foot stamping, vocalising and clapping. I do not try to feel the main beat, only to place the um steadily on the beat with assistance from your metronome, then play the um-cha with the metronome and your bass/bow. Keep relaxing and use small strokes. Think of the free spinning front wheel of your bicycle, not a brick wall to try and smash through.
 
Thanks David - I had been (successfully) experimenting with a Takadimi approach, along the lines I think you are proposing. The other method I am also using is to play along with the piece using MuseScore, no metronome, and see if I land on the down beat (red arrow)...All good suggestions, thanks all!
 

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In some of the faster off-beat passages in Orchestra, such as sections of Brahms's Academic Festival Overture, the difference between on and off beat is infinitesimal but apparent. As section leader in our Amateur Orchestra, I find some players just cant play off beat and I cant play off beat with players who cant play off beat.
The wholes thing collapses and the on-beat terrorists win out!
Any tips on how to cope in such situations?
I try to feel it and wait until the baton is clearly moving upward, but this can be difficult when there are say 2 off beat notes per beat.
 
...As section leader in our Amateur Orchestra, I find some players just cant play off beat and I cant play off beat with players who cant play off beat.
The wholes thing collapses and the on-beat terrorists win out!
Any tips on how to cope in such situations?
I try to feel it and wait until the baton is clearly moving upward, but this can be difficult when there are say 2 off beat notes per beat.

Feeling it, yes.
Wait until the "baton is clearly moving upward?" That wouldn't work for me unless the conductor was an automaton.

I sympathize with your observation about "players who can't play off beat." My question: Do they know they are deficient in this regard? If it persists, see if you can call a sectional rehearsal to address it.
 
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I suppose our current conductor is a bit of an automaton and I am specifically referring here to the Brahms.
Naw, its a fun orchestra, I'm must trying to keep myself right.
If I could find a way to over-ride the others and play more strongly they may be able to follow.
Combined age is over 200, 3 of us and I'm 54...
 
In some of the faster off-beat passages in Orchestra, such as sections of Brahms's Academic Festival Overture, the difference between on and off beat is infinitesimal but apparent. As section leader in our Amateur Orchestra, I find some players just cant play off beat and I cant play off beat with players who cant play off beat.
The wholes thing collapses and the on-beat terrorists win out!
Any tips on how to cope in such situations?
I try to feel it and wait until the baton is clearly moving upward, but this can be difficult when there are say 2 off beat notes per beat.
This is a common problem even with top professionals.

The layout of the ensemble is a significant factor...in other words large distances between those playing upbeats, and those playing downbeats. When distances become too large, you can't rely on your ears, because time is stretched acoustically across a large ensemble. So what you hear from across the ensemble may seem out of time, but at the conductors position it may be perfectly in sync.

1. Practice, practice practice.
2. Recognize the problem.
3. Ignore your ears.
4. Watch the stick very closely.
5. Sync your internal clock to the stick and subdivide.

Easier said the done.
 
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