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Double Bass PLEK for bass?

AntonLargiader

AntonLargiader

Sep 8, 2011
71
6
Charlottesville, VA
www.largiader.com
#1
My brother-in-law is thinking about this for one of his guitars. I just looked at my fingerboard (I've been having a lot of buzzing on the E string) and see a ripple in it. Now, I have a great shop less than an hour away but the engineer in me wonders about PLEK for getting a 'perfect' fingerboard. Granted, it's the computer's idea of perfect but still.

Does this exist for double bass?
 
#4
Hi.

That's an interesting idea.

The problem would be setting up the instrument to the machine (impossible I think with the current PLEK machines).

PLEK has been debated over and over and over again, and while it's fast(ish) and accurate, there's no magic and definitely nothing a skilled luthier couldn't accomplish with hand-held tools.

The worse the fretwork (or FB levelling in this case) the more stunning it seems.

I vote no for the feasibility, but yes for it being possible.

Regards
Sam
 
#7
If I had to guess, a DB won't fit in the machine, and it's not worth designing a larger machine for the considerably smaller DB market.

This could be a case where the old world technology is still more practical.
 
#9
I keep seeing this PLEX process coming up in posts on the slab side all the time but have find out exactly what it is and how it's done. Fully getting the fact that it's something more slab specific that upright I'd still like to know a bit more. Can anyone give me a brief explanation of what it is please?
 
#10
It just looks like a specialized CNC for fret dressing. Nothing very magical in fact.

You could carve a DB fingerboard with a CNC router - I imagine many are already at least roughed out this way - but setting up a machine which can do the finishing work with the FB attached just wouldn't be worth the effort, at least not as long as there are skilled bass luthiers around.
 
#12
Plek makes sense for fretted instruments but not for an UB. An UB fingerboard is easily shaped with a shaper or hand planes. If one had to produce hundreds of fingerboards a CNC machine could do it. Ultra precise accuracy is not a significant requirement for an UB fingerboard IMHO
 
#13
AntonLargiader said:
OP here. I realize it's for frets, but obviously fingerboard shape/accuracy is our equivalent. The wood could be milled to a desired shape just as easily as the metal frets of a guitar.

Here's a link he sent me, for those who haven't seen the process:

Introduction to Plek Technology Berlin - YouTube
Click to expand...

As a guy who works both sides of this fence, I'll say that a PLEK setup can't match a good repairman - its not even close. At Long & McQuade I share the room with the guitar guys and they are constantly complaining about the way Gibson's PLEKed guitars are set up...

Besides which, the guitar neck is put in the machine straight and the relief is adjusted afterwards by balancing the string tension with the truss rod. That won't be happening with your DB, thank God. :(
 
#14
I dress upright bass finger boards using a series of 3" x .75" x 44" Baltic birch blanks that have been milled on a computerized router to very specific bows that run the entire length. This allows me to chalk the board and get a very accurate dip over the entire finger board's length with no divots or gullies. The result is a player can achieve very low action without any buzzing. It really makes the basses very easy to play. I have different dips for different styles and player preferences.
 
#15
360guy said:
I dress upright bass finger boards using a series of 3" x .75" x 44" Baltic birch blanks that have been milled on a computerized router to very specific bows that run the entire length. This allows me to chalk the board and get a very accurate dip over the entire finger board's length with no divots or gullies. The result is a player can achieve very low action without any buzzing. It really makes the basses very easy to play. I have different dips for different styles and player preferences.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a very sensible use of CNC technology. PLEK seems to come down on the side of Rube Goldberg gadgets we don't need!
 
#16
powerbass said:
Plek makes sense for fretted instruments but not for an UB. An UB fingerboard is easily shaped with a shaper or hand planes. If one had to produce hundreds of fingerboards a CNC machine could do it. Ultra precise accuracy is not a significant requirement for an UB fingerboard IMHO
Click to expand...

It's not EASILY shaped--fingerboard dressing is extremely difficult to do properly. Doing a fret mill on an electric bass is a piece of cake compared to dressing the fingerboard on a double bass. Why would you think "ultra precise accuracy" is any less significant than on electric bass?



bob
 
#17
bassphase said:
It's not EASILY shaped--fingerboard dressing is extremely difficult to do properly. Doing a fret mill on an electric bass is a piece of cake compared to dressing the fingerboard on a double bass. Why would you think "ultra precise accuracy" is any less significant than on electric bass?



bob
Click to expand...

You first have to factor in the cost of the machine and CAD drawing time to create the program, then you would have to either jig the whole bass (a big PITA) or do FB's individually - all this runs into thousands of dollars of machine costs and set up. CNC machines make sense in a production capacity if you are running hundreds/thousands of parts not a couple. Even if you did Plek/CNC the FB you would still have to sand or dress it by hand. Considering most UB luthier's have extensive hand tool skills as well as other simpler machines makes shaping a FB a simpler, less expensive process. Then add onto this that you can purchase a preshaped FB that may require some dressing and shaping but not extensive milling. I'm wondering how many luthier's purchase rough ebony and mill FB's themselves? I am also assuming that most/many FB's that need dressing might just need a little tuning that could be done with hand planes, scrapers, rasp/files etc. As for precision an UB FB has a concave relief to it and usually the string height is quite high compared to a fretted instrument. IMHO the precision piece comes from using hand tools and paying attention to how the instrument plays. But hey I'm no luthier
 
#18
I'm going to throw a dissenting opinion in here.

Being a doubler, I have had years of experience having both electrics re-fretted and dressed as well as fingerboards on my uprights dressed.

Last time around on the electric side, I had Mike Lull re-fret and PLEK my 1960 precision bass.

Frankly, there is no way anyone can come close to what he did with hand tools. No way, no how. And I have had some very expensive (Smith, Lakland, Pedulla) electrics in addition to having nearly a hundred other electric basses pass through my hands at one time or another.

The PLEK process measures and remembers each precise point on the fret and goes back and dresses them to something like one millionth of an inch while the neck is under tension. I do think the quality and experience of the PLEK operator is important to the outcome, however.

I have pondered what a similar process would do for the double bass. Frankly, I think in application, a CNC controlled board leveling would be better than what could be achieved by hand. Is it practical? No. Have I had great fingerboard dressings done by hand? Yes, many times.

Maybe from a manufacturing standpoint it would be feasible, but IMHO not from a repair standpoint.

As a side note, I played a Martin bass recently that a friend is thinking about buying, and the fingerboard dressing on this new nearly 20k bass sucked.
 
#19
Jake deVilliers said:
At Long & McQuade I share the room with the guitar guys and they are constantly complaining about the way Gibson's PLEKed guitars are set up...
Click to expand...

There's a fair amount of chatter out there about how Gibson doesn't do it 'right'. The initial shape is supposed to be measured under operating string tension and it's not? Something like that. Plus, they might not be PLEKing them to a shape that people like very much. That's their choice.

I wonder if someone took a PLEKked Gibson to a shop for a real PLEK job, what they would find.

You first have to factor in the cost of the machine and CAD drawing time to create the program, then you would have to either jig the whole bass (a big PITA) or do FB's individually - all this runs into thousands of dollars of machine costs and set up.
Click to expand...

Well, sure. But none of that's a solid barrier; it's what the PLEK guys already did for guitar. It's machine fabrication, process design and programming. Raising it a few feet off the floor and finding a way to fixture the neck isn't any sort of show-stopper.

I can totally see how the DB equivalent could work. You'd probably want a slightly different cutting head shape, and programming would have to accommodate shaping the entire FB surface rather than only distinct frets. Initial measurements would have to take into account the way it's supported while playing. Baseline humidity and temp. Stuff like that.
 
#20
AntonLargiader said:
I can totally see how the DB equivalent could work. You'd probably want a slightly different cutting head shape, and programming would have to accommodate shaping the entire FB surface rather than only distinct frets. Initial measurements would have to take into account the way it's supported while playing. Baseline humidity and temp. Stuff like that.
Click to expand...

Sure. What you're talking about is a 3 axis CNC router set up to mill a bass FB after it's been installed on the bass. Nothing to do with PLEK except that it's designed to do a similar thing. It could be done, and for less money than many might think. However, well trained luthiers can already shape a FB with extremely high precision and excellent playability. For them, doing this work with CNC would provide no advantage. There are also lot's of luthiers out there who don't achieve grade A results using traditional methods, but they might not do any better with CNC if they had it - just as every PLEKed guitar doesn't turn out well.

What you're paying for when you get a fingerboard (or fret) dressing is not only the luthier's prowess with his tools, but his understanding of what shape optimizes playability for the individual customer. I think that what kind of process he uses to achieve that shape is secondary to his understanding of what shape is desired in the first place.

Edit:

I don't mean that there is no place for CNC in luthiery, or even in fingerboards specifically. I bet that many blanks are now cut with cnc routers, and luthiers who want to learn CAD could have their own blanks cut, giving them more control of grain orientation, rough shape, etc. But, the idea that a new machine is suddenly going to give us much better action on our basses (or guitars) than what we can get now is misguided. I suppose those twisty BG necks would be hard to do without CNC, though!
 

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