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Polarity: Millennia TD-1 phenomenon

scubaduba

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Ok, help me out. Why is it that some basses plugged in directly to the Millennia TD-1 sound better with the Polarity switch in vs. out? A couple of my basses sound thinner with the polarity switch in the outward position. Press the polarity switch in and these basses sound fuller and more 3D. But other basses, it is the opposite.

School me a bit on this. I am hearing this phenomenon with bass into TD-1 and TD-1 out via XLR to console and monitoring with Beyerdynamic DT700 cans. So not other pedals in the mix.
 
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Phase is a complicated subject...I'll touch on some ideas to the best of my ability...but let's be clear, I am no expert and I am sort of just scratching the surface.

What you are describing is better called polarity. Flipping the switch essentially inverts the signal.

If you only have one speaker, then it's unlikely you will be able to distinguish between in polarity and out. You may here the switch flipping, but afterwards you are unlikely to be able to tell if the polarity is + or -.

Audible results occur when you have different speakers that are spaced out.

A couple of relevant factors: 1. It takes time for sound to travel a given distance. 2. Wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency. In other words, as the frequency goes down the wavelength gets longer.

The consequence of these factors is two frequencies traveling from a speaker to a listener will arrive at different phase angles.

Imagine you have a speaker producing these two frequencies:
upload_2024-3-17_18-17-14.png


Both waveforms cross the X axis at -3. At -1, the blue waveform has completed a full cycle. At the same place, the red waveform has only complete a bit more than 1/4 wavelength.

Now imagine there are two sets of speakers producing the same waveforms. Assume the second speaker is further away. Depending on the difference in propagation paths, one of the waveforms may sum while the other cancels. Change the location of one of the speakers, and you can reverse which frequency cancels and which sums.

The frequency response contour of a bass can be relevant as well. Perhaps the bass produces a frequency that is summed, or perhaps the bass produces a frequency that is cancelled.

AFAIK...the pickups and speakers will also have some degree of phase variance. I believe with speakers the phase tends to lag as the frequency goes lower. However filters such as tone controls, high pass filters, and low pass filters also introduce variable phase errors.

Here is a graphic that shows the phase response of filters in a crossover.

In the top image, green is the high pass and purple is the low pass
66-phsae-first.JPG

Ref: Time Alignment Part Three: Delays and Crossovers for Tweeters and Mids - Audiofrog

The bottom image shows the phase response of the high pass and low pass. In this image the HPF is leading by 90 degrees and LPF is lagging by 90. Also, notice the phase is rotating throughout the crossover region. Also the phase variance between the signals is 180 degrees, so they are out of phase. This is a characteristic of 12dB/octave BW. With this sort of crossover, you reverse the polarity of one of the drivers; usually the tweeter.
 
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What you are describing is better called polarity.

Polarity. Yes, I am asking about polarity.

If you only have one speaker, then it's unlikely you will be able to distinguish between in polarity and out. You may here the switch flipping, but afterwards you are unlikely to be able to tell if the polarity is + or -.

Note my question was about monitoring with Beyerdynamic DT700 cans. I can notice a difference with polarity in and out. It's an obvious difference.

Thanks for posting all of the detail. I'm still not sure it answers my question as to why some of my basses sound better through the Millennia with the phase out and other with phase in. No pedals or anything else in the signal chain.
 
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Think of each pick up as a magnetic polarity. It seems like your basses have pickups with different magnetic polarities. You could test this with a compass by holding it close to the pickups.

In other words the pickups are wound either clockwise or counterclockwise. Some people believe that counterclockwise sounds better than clockwise wound. I don't have a preference either way. Maybe you will after this experiment.

Essentially the device you were speaking of could be used as an inadvertent polarity tester.

If you really want to know the answer though, purchase a real polarity tester and see if the instruments that are causing problems are actually wound differently.

Here is a chart that shows more detail.

image~2.jpg
 
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Think of each pick up as a magnetic polarity. It seems like your basses have pickups with different magnetic polarities. You could test this with a compass by holding it close to the pickups.

In other words the pickups are wound either clockwise or counterclockwise. Some people believe that counterclockwise sounds better than clockwise wound. I don't have a preference either way. Maybe you will after this experiment.

Essentially the device you were speaking of could be used as an inadvertent polarity tester.

If you really want to know the answer though, purchase a real polarity tester and see if the instruments that are causing problems are actually wound differently.

Here is a chart that shows more detail.

View attachment 5389181

Thanks! This is helpful. So, sounds like I don't necessarily have a problem, just that the polarity of my various are different. Do you have a suggestion for a polarity tester? This has me curious now.
 
Polarity on it's own doesn't change a thing.
A bass , alone , only one source , not supposed to hear any change in sound

If you hear a difference , it's because there is a second source that is "opposed" to that switched sound source.

My guess : there is another "non-180°" signal somewhere in your chain that "opposed" to your 0° signal
 
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Ok, here’s two tests…
1. Record something. Reverse the polarity of the recording. Do you hear a difference between them?

2. a. Record something in both polarity positions on TD-1. Do you have a looper so you can use exactly the same input for both?

b. Now, make copies of those recordings with flipped polarity. You should now have four tracks. Can you tell the difference?

Have someone else randomly play the various tracks. Can you pick correctly every time?
 
This is a REAL long shot... If you look at the signal flow diagram, you can see that their polarity reverse scheme is passive. If that part of the circuit has gone wonky, it's possible it's "doing something" to the signal just before it hits the equalizer. This is where an audio generator and a scope would come in handy.
 
That’s a great idea, @eniac. @scubaduba, take frequency response data with the switch in each position. Make sure that’s not the issue.

But you have mentioned this about various gear with a polarity switch. The “problem” is that you know the position of the switch at all times.
 
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Does that happens when only Fet is chosen or tube ?
Maybe your polarity switches only the FET or only the tube part......
Does it affect the sound only when both preamp are mixed together ? ( FET / Tube )

It isn't supposed to change sh**
Polarity switch does the same thing to sound as if you plug your 2 prong AC plug the other way around