POLL--Thread Idea: (Ginormous Tube Amps)

[bassguitarist85]

No, it’s not. Add in the weight of the amps and there’s no way to save 50 lbs.

I work with both technologies as part of my day job.

Look, I'm not denying your knowledge, but the information I wrote about comes directly from John Fields at Peavey, one of the original engineers who designed the VB amps. Bobby Baldwin, Steve Everett, and Lee Santaliano who did some of the SMPS design were also involved. I've had in depth conversations about the amps design with nearly all these guys, they know their stuff.

You can hear John talking at 4:00 how you lose 50lb of transformer weight with the SMPS. So rather than automatically saying I'm wrong, keep an open mind and verify with your own research.

 

[tombowlus]

The Peavey VB-3 is 37lbs and the VB-MA with SMPS is 38lbs; both rated for 300w.

For comparison, the Mesa Strategy Eight:88 is 49lbs and rated for 465W. The Prodigy Four:88 is 29lbs and rated for 250W.

All pretty remarkable IMHO. Too bad they are all discontinued .

I have tried both the VB-3 and VB-MA at various NAMM Shows, but not in a "real world" setting. I was impressed by what I heard, but I presume that there were market/production issues, as Peavey did not seem to produce many of them. I'm a huge fan of both the Prodigy and Strategy (and still own both), and both are definitely lighter than you would expect. As I recall, neither sold like wildfire, despite their merits. This may be in part due to the timing, as they hit the market just as folks seemed to be really embracing the super lightweight, compact bass heads.

 

[bassguitarist85]

I have tried both the VB-3 and VB-MA at various NAMM Shows, but not in a "real world" setting. I was impressed by what I heard, but I presume that there were market/production issues, as Peavey did not seem to produce many of them. ......This may be in part due to the timing, as they hit the market just as folks seemed to be really embracing the super lightweight, compact bass heads.

Correct. All the VB amps were hand made in the USA. Hartley did not trust the new China facility QC to handle the complex build of the SMPS. Unfortunately with the move over to China it was bad timing when USA Operations shut down. The VB-2 was the most popular, but VB-3 I'm told only a few hundred were ever made. The VB-MA...about 50! Half of those went to MA himself apparently, the other 25 went to Musicians Friend and other Peavey dealers.

In terms of marketing they promoted the VB-3 as their flagship amp. It had its merits too, but because the tech was "new" and never been done before noone seemed to believe it, like it was a novelty development type amp. MA took the VB-3 on the first tour with Chickenfoot, and it started to get some advertising traction. Then Peavey wanted to put all their eggs in one basket and approached MA for a signature version. That took time to develop/implement, but then the US ops shut down, and very few were made, to the point only MA got his share of them and a limited amount to the public.

Now if Ampeg put their name on this 37lb amp instead of their traditional 96lb SVT, then people I think would have taken more notice of it. Peavey IMO was a huge innovator in the music industry, but he got overshadowed by his popularity for the inexpensive cheap gear people either loved or hated.

 

[_Some Dude]

For awhile I was running a Mesa Strategy 8:88, which is rated for around 465. I mostly used it in half power mode as it helped tame the low end and bring the mids a bit more into focus.

I'm not opposed to big tube amps, but I feel like 50-100w guitar amps and 250-350w bass amps have been successful for a reason.

 

[_Some Dude]

Is there a point to having a massive tube amp? If I understand things correctly you're not going to get output tubes bigger than a 6550. So for 600w what's the difference between having one amp with say 12 output tubes, and 3 amps with 4 tubes each?

Was it 6 men with amps?

Or one man with 6 amps?

 

[_Some Dude]

I've been playing bass since 1968 and I have owned 3 tube amps and several SS amps. The one big power amp was a Eden VT300B that was made by Koch in Germany. I loved the way it sounded but it was just too heavy and expensive to schlep around n the red neck bars I was playing at the time. I ended up selling it. Today I'm a confirmed Class D user.

What can be more redneck than carrying something that's too heavy and expensive to schlep around?

An SVT in a bar is like driving an F450 with no trailer hitch and a tonneau cover. It's completely useless as a truck and excessive as a grocery getter, but it looks big and impressive.

 

[agedhorse]

Perhaps SMPS could shave off 20-25 lbs?

net, yeah that just about right.

The Peavey VB-3 is 37lbs and the VB-MA with SMPS is 38lbs; both rated for 300w.

For comparison, the Mesa Strategy Eight:88 is 49lbs and rated for 465W. The Prodigy Four:88 is 29lbs and rated for 250W.

All pretty remarkable IMHO. Too bad they are all discontinued .

Correct, and none of these entire amps are 50+ pounds.

Look, I'm not denying your knowledge, but the information I wrote about comes directly from John Fields at Peavey, one of the original engineers who designed the VB amps. Bobby Baldwin, Steve Everett, and Lee Santaliano who did some of the SMPS design were also involved. I've had in depth conversations about the amps design with nearly all these guys, they know their stuff.

You can hear John talking at 4:00 how you lose 50lb of transformer weight with the SMPS. So rather than automatically saying I'm wrong, keep an open mind and verify with your own research.

I’ve done more research on this subject than most folks in this industry, including replacing line frequency transformers with SMPS that I designed. I know in excruciating detail how much weight can be saved

Before making absurd claims, look at the ENTIRE weights of the amps that Wasnex posted above. If changing to an SMPS saves 50 lbs, all of those amps would defy gravity and float away with their weights tallying in as negative!!!

 

[bassguitarist85]

net, yeah that just about right.



Correct, and none of these entire amps are 50+ pounds.



I’ve done more research on this subject than most folks in this industry, including replacing line frequency transformers with SMPS that I designed. I know in excruciating detail how much weight can be saved

Before making absurd claims, look at the ENTIRE weights of the amps that Wasnex posted above. If changing to an SMPS saves 50 lbs, all of those amps would defy gravity and float away with their weights tallying in as negative!!!

I get what you are saying, the math doesnt work for the other amps. I wasn't claiming anything, just passing along what I was told/learned from the Peavey engineers. If you watch that video John was talking about the Peavey Classic 400, which weighs 93.6lb according to the spec sheet. The power transformer was intentionally oversized so it can pass UL and output a ton of low end at full power. So that specific power transformer must have weighed 50(ish) pounds if we are putting the weight difference point into context.

I see you work for Mesa/GB, cool stuff! Forgive me I'm not really familiar with Mesa products, but since you are so familiar with the technology has Mesa ever come out with a similar lightweight valve amp with an SMPS like Peavey did?

Edit: John just txted me and weighed the Classic 400 transformer.

"My apologies.... turns out that the 120V is only 40.2#. The 220-240V was more like 45.0#."

And there you have it! Thanks John!

 

[Lance Bunyon]

I get what you are saying, the math doesnt work for the other amps. I wasn't claiming anything, just passing along what I was told/learned from the Peavey engineers. If you watch that video John was talking about the Peavey Classic 400, which weighs 93.6lb according to the spec sheet. The power transformer was intentionally oversized so it can pass UL and output a ton of low end at full power. So that specific power transformer must have weighed 50(ish) pounds if we are putting the weight difference point into context.

I see you work for Mesa/GB, cool stuff! Forgive me I'm not really familiar with Mesa products, but since you are so familiar with the technology has Mesa ever come out with a similar lightweight valve amp with an SMPS like Peavey did?

Check out the Prodigy at 29 lbs

 

[cfortner]

I measured a lot of tube amps in this category.
True RMS meter, 400 Hz at the beginning of clipping (about 5% distortion):

Mesa Strategy 470W RMS
Mesa Prodigy 200W RMS
Traynor YBA 300 180W (!)
Traynor YBA 200 130W (!)
VBA 400 400W RMS
Laney Nexus 400 390W RMS
Trace VA350 280W RMS (6550)
Trace Hexa Valve 280W RMS (6550)

Self built Hiwatt400-clone (650V, 6x 6550) 300W

Mywatt 400 (DR400 clone, 6x KT88) at 800V Ua (additional toroid 150W for higher Ua) 380W RMS

Mywatt 400 with 850V Ua and six KT120 500W RMS, but instable BIAS due to Rg of 130k instead of 51k

They all are loud enough, but are sounding different.

My favorites are Trace VA350, Mywatt 400 (300W), Hiwatt 400 Clone.
I‘m playing the Mywatt and the Hiwatt 400 for rehearsal, live Mesa WD 800 or Trace VA350.

Great amps!

 

[cfortner]

PS: The Prodigy is a very good amp, but sounds not so tubey like the others.

 

[agedhorse]

I get what you are saying, the math doesnt work for the other amps. I wasn't claiming anything, just passing along what I was told/learned from the Peavey engineers. If you watch that video John was talking about the Peavey Classic 400, which weighs 93.6lb according to the spec sheet. The power transformer was intentionally oversized so it can pass UL and output a ton of low end at full power. So that specific power transformer must have weighed 50(ish) pounds if we are putting the weight difference point into context.

I see you work for Mesa/GB, cool stuff! Forgive me I'm not really familiar with Mesa products, but since you are so familiar with the technology has Mesa ever come out with a similar lightweight valve amp with an SMPS like Peavey did?

Edit: John just txted me and weighed the Classic 400 transformer.

"My apologies.... turns out that the 120V is only 40.2#. The 220-240V was more like 45.0#."

And there you have it! Thanks John!

Exactly, an SMPS will be about 5 lbs (the higher voltage drives some of this added weight due to the increased margin’s required) which results in a net weight savings of about 40 pounds on the Classic 400.

We were originally talking about the difference between the V3B and its predecessor which of course is even less of a difference.

Mesa has not done an SMPS all valve (tube) bass amp because the numbers simply did not support the cost of development and safety/EMC certifications. Not even close actually. Besides, the weight savings doing it with different line frequency transformer designs was pretty close to what we could do with SMPS anyway (the Prodigy is within about 5 pounds of what we could have achieved with an SMPS).

Instead, we went with SMPS combined with class D and players clearly preferred this solution by several factors of 10,

 

[agedhorse]

PS: The Prodigy is a very good amp, but sounds not so tubey like the others.

The Strategy and Prodigy are voiced that way intentionally, an offshoot of the Carbine family voicing.

 

[Wasnex]

I get what you are saying, the math doesnt work for the other amps. I wasn't claiming anything, just passing along what I was told/learned from the Peavey engineers. If you watch that video John was talking about the Peavey Classic 400, which weighs 93.6lb according to the spec sheet. The power transformer was intentionally oversized so it can pass UL and output a ton of low end at full power. So that specific power transformer must have weighed 50(ish) pounds if we are putting the weight difference point into context.

I see you work for Mesa/GB, cool stuff! Forgive me I'm not really familiar with Mesa products, but since you are so familiar with the technology has Mesa ever come out with a similar lightweight valve amp with an SMPS like Peavey did?

Edit: John just txted me and weighed the Classic 400 transformer.

"My apologies.... turns out that the 120V is only 40.2#. The 220-240V was more like 45.0#."

And there you have it! Thanks John!

View attachment 5225193

IMHO SMPS is only part of the weight saving.

I take it as, they shaved 50lbs of the design, which seems entirely reasonable, especially if the Classic 400 is the reference. Note: the Classic seems unusually heavy.

In contrast, the Mesa Prodigy and Strategy are unusually light for their power level. The could probably claim shaving at least 30lbs off those designs. If they would have gone with SMPS, then perhaps they could have claim and additional -20lbs, which would have put them at 50lbs net.

 

[bassguitarist85]

Mesa has not done an SMPS all valve (tube) bass amp because the numbers simply did not support the cost of development and safety/EMC certifications. Not even close actually. Besides, the weight savings doing it with different line frequency transformer designs was pretty close to what we could do with SMPS anyway (the Prodigy is within about 5 pounds of what we could have achieved with an SMPS).

Instead, we went with SMPS combined with class D and players clearly preferred this solution by several factors of 10,

Thank you for this critical information. This is exactly why I doubt we will ever see an SMPS all valve amp at the power output of the VB-3 / VB-MA. Unless Peavey were to come out with an updated version someday since they already have the approved design it is a snowball's chance in hell. The economics of the market drive what manufacturers do.

That being said, anyone who home builds an SMPS powered all valve amp, I'm all over checking out those monsters.

 

[_Some Dude]

IMHO SMPS is only part of the weight saving.

I take it as, they shaved 50lbs of the design, which seems entirely reasonable, especially if the Classic 400 is the reference. Note: the Classic seems unusually heavy.

In contrast, the Mesa Prodigy and Strategy are unusually light for their power level. The could probably claim shaving at least 30lbs off those designs. If they would have gone with SMPS, then perhaps they could have claim and additional -20lbs, which would have put them at 50lbs net.

Strategy was 50 lbs. Prodigy was 30.

If I remember correctly, it was a combination of using a different metal in the transformers and not using a wooden headshell.

 

[agedhorse]

Strategy was 50 lbs. Prodigy was 30.

If I remember correctly, it was a combination of using a different metal in the transformers and not using a wooden headshell.

Correct, there are a lot of contributing factors to the weight savings. Replacing the power transformer in the Prodigy would only save maybe 5 lbs.

 

[Drredplate]

Another strange behemoth. Also 1000 watts...
http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html

John Chambers was building these to order. I dread to think of the cost though.
I love big tube amps for all sorts of impractical reasons

 

[agedhorse]

When dealing with larger tube power amps, it’s especially important that they have safety certification because a fault can easily be fatal to the user… and it will hurt the entire time you are dying too

 

[Geri O]

Justifying the proposed thread does not require a belief that you think ginormous tube amps are practical in any way. I don't care if you gig one, own one, or even want one. The only requirement is that you are fascinated and/or amused by their existence enough to think it would be nice (dare I see useful) to have a thread dedicated to them.

Well, heck. In that case, I’m in!….