Pondering Some New Ideas, Need Some Input

[agedhorse]

It's been at least 10 years since I owned a Bass 400+, but what I remember was its unique combination of aggressive attack with a slight sag when you really leaned into it.

Of course, that recollection may be slanted by how I was using the 400+:
When I first owned one (in the mid 90s) I was playing Helmet-inspired heavy grunge with a MusicMan bass through a 4x10 and a 2x15...stage volume was probably in the 115dB range.

Still, I think an amp that combines clarity and warmth and grit in the way that the 400+ did (with maybe a bit more headroom in the preamp) would appeal to a lot of players.

Maybe revisit using a tube at the end of the preamp path to knock the rough edges off the signal before it goes to the ICE power module?

The preamp headroom issue does come up from time to time with the Bass 400, something I am investigating more.

 

[pisces_bass]

My (dated) memories of seeing 400+ amps on stage include Undertow-era Tool and mid-90’s Deftones. So, edgy, grindy tones at very high volumes.

I haven’t tried a Subway amp yet. I have a 800w class D that is pretty transparent that I use as a platform for various preamp pedals. If I were to purchase something new, I’d be looking for something heavily voiced, something that has a distinct character, maybe even “in your face”. I could see using an updated 400/400+ flavor with my rock bands and keeping my existing “neutral” amp for low volume acoustic gigs.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

@Wasnex captured the essence of what I would have said. The pushy grunt of the Plus and the graphic were the appealing aspects to me. The GEQ on a foot switch would be a nice to have. For the rackers still out there the rear input is a nice to have, and addresses the @dbase observation.
As is typical with a tube pre/power amp finding the sweet spot with the pre, just into compression and responsive touch overdrive on tap: then let the power section eat as much as the room will support is the secret sauce for many.

Whole different enchilada: pump the master till the noise floor becomes audible: and let input gain act as the level control. That enhances the slam aspect and keeps it cleaner. This is my level of preference.

The 400/plus excelled (imho) when utilized as the latter as the note envelope has a more pronounced initial peak transient. The follow on bloom had less upper harmonics and more fundamental.

in the former case: there is more artifacting, and high content is more present in the duration of the envelope.

Controllable output power would be welcomed also without relying on the output impedance for the task, this way the desire for dirt can be achieved at lower SPL ( I love the 2 ohm trick BTW) but a more elegant, direct option would be welcome.

I DO miss the Voice control from the D800 (+) on the WD. Although the passive mids is one of my favorite features.

The damping control on the WD is wonderful. The PEQ and having it switched is a nice touch, but takes more front panel real estate than a GEQ would, and is more easily understood by many. I seldom leverage the PEQ in my shaping. I understand how it works, but the core tone without it, employed with the modern cabs is sufficient.

keep an HPF as part of the design please!

sorry for the stream of thought format to my post, hope this helps the process.

 

[40Hz]

The graphic eq came up in the TT discussion, most players were not terribly interested in one, and some really were negative in this regard, though a few thought it would be cool to have if it didn't add too much to t he cost or make the amp larger. Of course things are different now with all the really good eq pedals, so maybe it was a feature that made more sense back then than today?

Between the ongoing improvements in bass cabs, and the proliferation of outboard EQ options, I think a graphic equalizer is something you could easily eliminate without hearing more than a few token protests. I currently own an old amp with a graphic EQ, and I owned a couple of others back in the 80s. And I never found a graphic EQ to be all that useful in practice after experimenting with them for a bit. I basically left them set flat except on rare occasions. About the most I can say about them is they looked cool on stage and netted you some bragging rights back in their heyday.

If you really do need a graphic EQ then a programmable pedal version like the ones available from Free the Tone, BOSS, or SA are a better option IMO.

 

[jdjk7]

After winding down some long, tedious and mind numbing regulatory projects I'm looking back at some ideas that we have discussed here in the past (specifically regarding the WD-800 and TT-800) and dusted off some old potential concept sheets.

While working specifically on the TT-800, I got asked quite a few times about revisiting the Bass 400/400+ concept except in a lighter weight package. Of course, the TT used some elements of the Bass 400 but included elements that were not as in your face as the Bass 400 because it had to make sense to work well with the Subway channel in a useful channel switching amp.

How interested would folks be with a Bass 400 dedicated version (no channel switching) along the lines of the WD representing the Walkabout?

Then the question becomes what features are important/essential, what new features might be interesting to explore, what features should be avoided (other than the obvious size/weight), etc. The goal would be to see what could be done to take it beyond what it is given the changes we have seen in the music and the needs of today's player. For those would would want an exact copy, they can be bought in decent condition for less than it costs us to build one today. A new one would be in the $5k range, which is awfully expensive (to me anyway) I think.

I'm just looking for some inspiration, and what you players might want to see (and also not see). I have no idea where this might go, what it might evolve to, but I owe it to the Bass 400 to at least explore the concept.

I'm not super interested in the Bass 400 for the sake of itself, though perhaps I just haven't heard the right demo/track. But I do think posting threads like this is great.

I've come to really like the feature set of the WD-800-- toggle switches instead of push buttons (tactile preference), the I/O and switching options available on the back, etc. I really like the power amp damping circuit. The WD is the only amp I know of that does this in the same way, but the effect is very cool (if subtle). I even use the USB power on occasion, although I don't think it would be the end of the world without it.

I do have to agree with @dbase that the handles cramp up the geometry on both ends a little bit. I don't personally have the same issue as him, but I do find the damping selector a little awkward to turn as a result... i'm right handed, and would normally turn knobs with my right hand, but in this case, that can't happen. This borders on being a nitpick for me, and I wouldn't have considered it an issue until I read that post above. If it were me, I would put handles on the rack ears and not on the face of the amp, but I don't know if that would be ideal with the screws putting stress on the thin chassis and such.

 

[moon-bass]

How interested would folks be with a Bass 400 dedicated version (no channel switching) along the lines of the WD representing the Walkabout?

EXTREMELY interested!

I've owned a TT-800, WD-800, and several 400+'s. The 400+ is my favorite amp of all time, and it's not even close! The weight though ..

IMO - I love the power section of the TT-800, especially with the damping factor capabilities. I never used the Subway channel, and I might be in the minority here, but I really miss the graphic EQ on the 400+.

That being said, my ideal preamp is a Fender style tone stack, two gain options (clean/dirty), and a parametric EQ or (preferably) two to replace the graphic EQ. I don't need two channels, but a switchable boost/dirt option would be ideal. Also, a nice DI is essential!

A 400+ WD style with the 400+ preamp and 2 parametrics and a tube driven DI? Add the power section of the TT? Sign me up! Make it as light and as small as possible, BTW.

 

[gustobassman]

Since more and more people are going IEM, why not put it into a smaller preamp style form like the Subway DI and DI+?

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Since more and more people are going IEM, why not put it into a smaller preamp style form like the Subway DI and DI+?

Hmm! That is interesting. I could deploy it as a “second channel” with my WD. Or put it into my Torpedo M+ loaded with the Subway cab impulses… hmmm

 

[Jim C]

I used 400's back in the day but never owned one. I did have a TT800 and never thought it sounded all that close. OTOH I never did an A/B comparison so trusting ones memory on audio is always a risky task.

I would be interested in a dedicated 400 clone but the decision to buy would be based solely on tone (and assuming an approximate $1K purchase price).
Maybe a small minority on this but I would also be interested in a updated version of the M series.
Even though there is a shortage of replacement parts they sell used at $650+ all day long.

 

[DrThumpenstein]

I've never played through the 400/400+, although I love the voicing of the Boogie channel on the TT. I would have no interest in a similar head representing some variation in the voicing within the 400 range, as that voicing is so well represented in the TT.

I do think Mesa is missing an important opportunity right now. More and more of us are moving to in-ears and away from stage monitors for live performances. Mesa currently has no pedal-based solutions on the market. In fact, it's hard to find used ones. I think this is an important part of the bass musician market, a growing segment, and I personally would have much more interest in that sort of product. Another production run of the D800+ pedals would get an immediate deposit from me. I'd rather do that than reproduce the Boogie channel on a pedal, but I would get that for a fly rig if that were the only option. Same for the WD, although I think it would be more challenging to get that amp into a pedal format.

I'm really happy that you're getting freed up to work on some new stuff!

 

[hooky_marr]

While working specifically on the TT-800, I got asked quite a few times about revisiting the Bass 400/400+ concept except in a lighter weight package. Of course, the TT used some elements of the Bass 400 but included elements that were not as in your face as the Bass 400 because it had to make sense to work well with the Subway channel in a useful channel switching amp.

I would be all for it. Here's my 2¢, with some of it being colored by my profession in user experience design.

• I'm ok with it being a full 19" rackmount, maybe a 2U so it saves vertical space? That way there's more space around any input/output jacks as previously mentioned and there can be a big front power switch.
  
• Buffered effects loop
• Tuner out (though a built-in tuner might be a nice convenience?)
  
• DI out (pre/post eq)
  
• Also yes to footswitchable EQ and effects loop bypass
• I'm old-school. I like a graphic EQ, and visually it'd be a nice reference back to the original 400. Maybe this could borrow a little from the old Trace Elliott 7-band? Even though players might have EQ or preamp pedals on their boards, an amp EQ helps tailor things to the room.
  
• EQ sliders with little LEDs are nice to read at a distance. Maybe with some sort of snap-on cover to prevent them from being bumped.
  
• Bring back the 400-style skirt knobs - also easier to read at a distance.
• Also from a readability perspective, if I may recommend labelling things using Sentence Case instead of ALL CAPS as it makes letterforms easier to distinguish.
• Also just from a typography nerd perspective, please don't use Arial on it, because Arial is a terrible typeface.

Just throwing this idea out there: it'd be nice to have a New 400 in a lightweight 2x10 combo format with an extension speaker connection.

 

[DuluthDank]

Random wishlist thing unrelated to your question: I know you guys don't do combos anymore (like the old walkabout combos), but I wish amp makers did a universal bracket system to marry amps and cabs. I'd love to be able to attach a D800+ (or other Mesa amp) to a Mesa 210 or 115 cab. The same idea as your old Genz Benz combos. This is user friendly for a grab and go thing, but you can also tilt them back easily on a gig to hear better.

Maybe i'm in the minority there, but I love those sorts of full featured combos better than separates.

 

[Killing Floor]

I like some of your amps now have user facing HPF. I don’t care about FX loop as a selling point since I’m not using racks. In general I like the idea of 400/400+ based head. I believe in an amplifier designer/pm’s ability to choose EQ and I/O settings and features. I’m in the camp of “if it sounds good there’s a lot of give and take I’m comfortable with”.
Those were bold amps. I could see a market for that pair in a Subway sized package.

 

[JenderBazzFass]

The graphic eq came up in the TT discussion, most players were not terribly interested in one, and some really were negative in this regard, though a few thought it would be cool to have if it didn't add too much to t he cost or make the amp larger. Of course things are different now with all the really good eq pedals, so maybe it was a feature that made more sense back then than today?

Personally I'd really love to have a graphic EQ, it'd be a major plus for me if an amp had one.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I'm not super interested in the Bass 400 for the sake of itself, though perhaps I just haven't heard the right demo/track. But I do think posting threads like this is great.

I've come to really like the feature set of the WD-800-- toggle switches instead of push buttons (tactile preference), the I/O and switching options available on the back, etc. I really like the power amp damping circuit. The WD is the only amp I know of that does this in the same way, but the effect is very cool (if subtle). I even use the USB power on occasion, although I don't think it would be the end of the world without it.

I do have to agree with @dbase that the handles cramp up the geometry on both ends a little bit. I don't personally have the same issue as him, but I do find the damping selector a little awkward to turn as a result... i'm right handed, and would normally turn knobs with my right hand, but in this case, that can't happen. This borders on being a nitpick for me, and I wouldn't have considered it an issue until I read that post above. If it were me, I would put handles on the rack ears and not on the face of the amp, but I don't know if that would be ideal with the screws putting stress on the thin chassis and such.

ATST for us non-rackets the handles offer some protection of the face if a fall happens.

 

[-Stingray]

Since more and more people are going IEM, why not put it into a smaller preamp style form like the Subway DI and DI+?

LOVE this idea!!!!

 

[LSM07]

Would it be 2 input/2 channel as the 400+ is? Sorry if that's kind of a dumb question as it looks like the original 400+ is 2 inputs/2 channels, but seems like many amps these days are 1 input with 1 or more channels, or 2 inputs with 1 channel - annoying for doublers.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I played a 400/400+ many years ago exactly once, so my opinion is pretty much bunk, but I tried a TT-800 and wasn't much of a fan of the Boogie channel. It seemed that the EQ did little to nothing. Traded for a WD-800 and love it. I already have a D-800+, so the Subway channel was covered. My "wants" would probably make a BG-800, or whatever it's called, no longer a nod to the 400/400+. I'd also love a GEQ, so I'm pretty much out of touch. Heh. Actually, maybe a GEQ would give the tone shaping that I'd like?

 

[slagheap]

If I may insert my wish list here... It's too late for me now that I already own a WD800, but for future builds could you move the instrument jack one RCH to the right of the front handle so you can plug in remote receiver dongles etc. The handle is in the way.. <my 2 cents>
P.S. For those who don't know, RCH is a term used by an RCA engineer when I took an electronics course in 1972.. It has never changed over the years.

You said a mouthful right there.

 

[mikewalker]

LOVE this idea!!!!

ditto on that... I haven't had a Mesa "pedal' since the Bottle Rocket (or whatever that was called) but a 400 preamp/DI would be another instant purchase. I really don't "need" another amp - which is the only reason I dont have a TT-800 already, but I would definitely jump in the pre-order line for a 2-ohm "400" Class D and also a preamp/DI version of the same...