Pondering Some New Ideas, Need Some Input

[tombowlus]

As a follow-up question, would a Carbine inspired amp along these lines be more or less interesting?

I can see a lot of folks - myself included - getting behind a Carbine-inspired amp. My "Fathom" (before the name change) is still one of my favorite tone machines!

 

[agedhorse]

I never had a chance to play both amps with similar cabinets or in similar venues.
Many of us have tube amps that get somewhat close to a 400 but I remember the M series as having a bit of a unique tone. I also really like the idea of a "voice" control.
I think it might come down to which one could get closest to the original while using modern components.

Could the M series be brought back with just a modern output section or is it more complicated than that (like the Walkabout)?

It's more complicated because the entire power amp would need to be redesigned (the MOSFETs are no longer available) and the market for 30+ pound amps is pretty small. It would also fall into the $2500 range, which for a heavy amp is going to be a very tough sell.

 

[PeaveyPlayer]

What was the 400+ like? I’ve never heard one or seen one!

 

[PeaveyPlayer]

Are rack preamps still a thing lol

 

[rockdoc11]

agedhorse, thanks so much for asking this question!

I owned and played through a Bass 400 for several years in the early-mid 1990s, into a Mesa 215 cabinet. For the last few years I've been playing through a Mesa Subway D800. I'm also a guitar player, and love traditional tube tone in amps.

That said, I cannot imagine going back to the Bass 400 at this point. The new gear, specifically my D800, sounds so unbelievably great, and is SO much lighter and easier to move from gig to gig. My Bass 400 also had ongoing issues with the EQ section, which would crackle and otherwise sound unhappy when touched.

I'm certainly not a music gear marketer. but I have trouble visualizing a large enough market for a resissued Bass 400/400+ to make it worthwhile. But it's so cool that you folks are thinking about this.

Again, thanks for all your contributions here. I always learn from your posts.

 

[monsterthompson]

What was the 400+ like? I’ve never heard one or seen one!

There’s probably a good chance you’ve heard one.
Scroll down to the users list.
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[gtirard]

agedhorse, thanks so much for asking this question!

I owned and played through a Bass 400 for several years in the early-mid 1990s, into a Mesa 215 cabinet. For the last few years I've been playing through a Mesa Subway D800. I'm also a guitar player, and love traditional tube tone in amps.

That said, I cannot imagine going back to the Bass 400 at this point. The new gear, specifically my D800, sounds so unbelievably great, and is SO much lighter and easier to move from gig to gig. My Bass 400 also had ongoing issues with the EQ section, which would crackle and otherwise sound unhappy when touched.

I'm certainly not a music gear marketer. but I have trouble visualizing a large enough market for a resissued Bass 400/400+ to make it worthwhile. But it's so cool that you folks are thinking about this.

Again, thanks for all your contributions here. I always learn from your posts.

The idea is not to re-launch the 400+ as it was, but to create a modern amp voiced like the 400+

 

[Mixoso]

I may be alone but I would love a simple and not huge Mesa Boogie bass head as an extension of the Fillmore or California Tweed guitar amp lines. A mid powered all tube head with Gain, Master, Bass, Mids, Treble and one or two Mesa Boogie extras. That in the lovely California Tweed lovely would be amazing.

Would you be interested at the price of say the Fillmore?

Absolutely. $2kish. And I think Mesa Boogie would create and own a new market segment. I'm primarily a guitar player and I guess I come from the world of infinite possibility in guitar amp land. But as I've shifted to bass and put a rig together I have found a ton of small Class-D heads all chopping up that market, and then on the other end there are SVTs/400+ heads used (way too heavy, industrial, complicated) and not a ton in between. Sort of what we wished a Bassman head was would be great.

There is the Ampeg V-4B but respectfully, it's not that great and it's made in China. There is the Orange AD-200, which could be an option...but I think Mesa Boogie could hit this type of head out of the park.

BTW, I'm currently using an Orange Bass Terror which is pretty good.Has some vibe, but give me the real deal... give me wicker even!

 

[profb]

Absolutely. $2kish. And I think Mesa Boogie would create and own a new market segment. I'm primarily a guitar player and I guess I come from the world of infinite possibility in guitar amp land. But as I've shifted to bass and put a rig together I have found a ton of small Class-D heads all chopping up that market, and then on the other end there are SVTs/400+ heads used (way too heavy, industrial, complicated) and not a ton in between. Sort of what we wished a Bassman head was would be great.

BTW, I'm currently using an Orange Bass Terror which is pretty good.Has some vibe, but give me the real deal... give me wicker even!

I would also be interested in a smaller (ie, not an SVT) all tube amp from Mesa Boogie at that price. I play a little guitar and have the Fillmore and love the clean and overdriven sounds of it and have sometimes thought, "I wish I had a bass amp like this!" I can imagine it being great for recording, as well.

Coming back to the original question: I would definitely be interested in a single-channel, 400/+ style amp. I also would be strongly in favor of having the graphic EQ. The WD800 maintained the 3 band parametric mid EQ of the Walkabout. The graphic EQ of the 400/+ seems like an essential part of that design to me. I wonder, how much space would it take up compared to the WD's parametric section?

Off topic, but if MB released another preamp/di in pedal form, I'd buy it instantly!

 

[shoot-r]

I can see a lot of folks - myself included - getting behind a Carbine-inspired amp. My "Fathom" (before the name change) is still one of my favorite tone machines!

+1!

The "Fathom", first version of the M6 Carbines.

Easy to dial in, no need for a zillion knobs, switches, and sliders.

Don't know what it was, but there was something really special about the way those amps reproduced the note and then slammed it out to you.

I gigged with two of them for years in a country/rock band, still my all time favorite amps.

It could be placed in a D-800 size of box, do away with the push/pull pots of the orginal Carbines, add a adjustable HPF, and a independent mute switch and hi and low switch.

I'd be first in line for a Subway, class D version of a Fathom flavored M6 Carbine.

 

[BaltBass5]

Slightly off topic...but I'd be REALLY interested in Preamp only boxes of the 800+, WD800 and possibly this new 400 concept.

 

[GeneralElectric]

I gigged heavily with 400+ amps until the power section blew up on one of my amps. Swore off big tube heads for a long time, until I got an SVT-CL, and the weight made me mess my Mesa.

The biggest issue of those amps were that they would go from quiet to skull splitting fairly quickly. I loved the tone and eventually replaced it with an Alembic F1X to get a better version of the Fender tone stack.

I never really used the graphic EQ on the 400+ but I used to use a Y cable to blend the two channels together. Both preamps together was THE 400+ sound to me.

If there was a new generation of the Bass 400+ I'd like to see the following:

1 input, 2 channel preamp with an A/B and Blend
Same tone controls with pull knobs. No graphic EQ.
Jensen DI out.
FX loop.

For the power section, I loved the power tube breakup. either a smaller tube power section with the ability to play it without a cab, or hybrid tube power section with a SS amp drving most of the signal. That being said, I have a demeter VTBP 800 and the power section is very good and very quick. It has an ICE power module.

 

[bucephylus]

After winding down some long, tedious and mind numbing regulatory projects I'm looking back at some ideas that we have discussed here in the past (specifically regarding the WD-800 and TT-800) and dusted off some old potential concept sheets.

While working specifically on the TT-800, I got asked quite a few times about revisiting the Bass 400/400+ concept except in a lighter weight package. Of course, the TT used some elements of the Bass 400 but included elements that were not as in your face as the Bass 400 because it had to make sense to work well with the Subway channel in a useful channel switching amp.

How interested would folks be with a Bass 400 dedicated version (no channel switching) along the lines of the WD representing the Walkabout?

Then the question becomes what features are important/essential, what new features might be interesting to explore, what features should be avoided (other than the obvious size/weight), etc. The goal would be to see what could be done to take it beyond what it is given the changes we have seen in the music and the needs of today's player. For those would would want an exact copy, they can be bought in decent condition for less than it costs us to build one today. A new one would be in the $5k range, which is awfully expensive (to me anyway) I think.

I'm just looking for some inspiration, and what you players might want to see (and also not see). I have no idea where this might go, what it might evolve to, but I owe it to the Bass 400 to at least explore the concept.

Andy, thanks for your efforts.

I would be keenly interested in a more 400 / Boogie Channel centric version of the TT-800, with one proviso. Would it be possible to add an input pad to accommodate active basses better than the TT-800 input? That was the only thing about the TT-800 that I struggled with.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

A 24-month no interest financing plan if I buy it through Mesa's website?

Very interested to see how this product develops though, as I've heard the 400+ on records for some of my favorite bands.

 

[agedhorse]

Andy, thanks for your efforts.

I would be keenly interested in a more 400 / Boogie Channel centric version of the TT-800, with one proviso. Would it be possible to add an input pad to accommodate active basses better than the TT-800 input? That was the only thing about the TT-800 that I struggled with.

Good point. The TT follows the gain staging of Bass 400 which includes the levels that the preamp begins to overdrive/distort.

Since these amps were designed over 30 years ago, basses have crept up in output level to the point that there are basses that can be problematic (with the bass’s volume all the way up). I just received information from EMG on their X series P/U’s (and IEM versions) and the levels are unbelievably hot (between 3V and 8.5V) w/ 2k output impedance. This will overdrive a power amp directly WITHOUT a preamp!!!

So yes, this will obviously need to be addressed in any future amps. The D-800, D-800+ and WD-800 use a different input stage architecture which is immune to this, the TT (and 400/400+) inputs can be overdriven by such a hot signal.

This is why direct reissues or clones of the circuits aren’t always viable, as the sources change, the amps need to evolve to accommodate this. It’s not an issue with lower level basses, but the trend has been for basses to become hotter.

 

[Rooster009]

I could be wrong, but isn’t the reason the industry basically did away with the graphic EQ due to the problems associated with dust getting into the sliders and causing quality issues? Yamaha made a mixer a few years back, EMX 5016cf I believe, that had a pretty cool graphic eq that you could save scenes to. That type of EQ would be cool. I’m not sure if that section was all digital or a digital/analog path. Also the A&B channel blend is a great idea.

 

[agedhorse]

Sliders in graphic eq’s are indeed problematic long term unless the amp is kept in a case or dust free environment.

 

[Rooster009]

Also, the compressor that’s in the Mpulse 600 is a great compressor. I would think it would be a welcomed addition to any new product. It needs a make up gain knob though. As it is, I use the solo knob to offset the volume when I use the compressor on the Mpulse.

 

[bucephylus]

Good point. The TT follows the gain staging of Bass 400 which includes the levels that the preamp begins to overdrive/distort.

Since these amps were designed over 30 years ago, basses have crept up in output level to the point that there are basses that can be problematic (with the bass’s volume all the way up). I just received information from EMG on their X series P/U’s (and IEM versions) and the levels are unbelievably hot (between 3V and 8.5V) w/ 2k output impedance. This will overdrive a power amp directly WITHOUT a preamp!!!

So yes, this will obviously need to be addressed in any future amps. The D-800, D-800+ and WD-800 use a different input stage architecture which is immune to this, the TT (and 400/400+) inputs can be overdriven by such a hot signal.

This is why direct reissues or clones of the circuits aren’t always viable, as the sources change, the amps need to evolve to accommodate this. It’s not an issue with lower level basses, but the trend has been for basses to become hotter.

Thanks Andy.

I was 200% happy with the clean sound of the TT-800; don’t need a replica of the 400. I think you got that one nailed. A Boogie Channel only type of amp using your TT design, and including an input pad would be outstanding.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

I like the idea of being able to buy any of the amplifiers front end section in a preamp form, but I think that there may be limitations to this concept. For example if there was a WD preamp in a box and I plugged it into my D800 would it be possible to emulate the WD800 output circuitry variable damping control? That would be a real trick if it could be done.

On a different note, if control panel real estate limits features, why not make some features operable by my iPhone? A multi-band graphic EQ for example. I say this not knowing if I would actually want this feature myself. The D800 is the newest amplifier I own, and some of my other amplifiers were made way before 1967, so I can live without any new-fangled phone app controls on an amplifier, but lets face it, this kind of technology is not going away. I'm just spit-balling an R&D idea on this one.