Poor babies…

[two fingers]

It has been implied that audiences would not care if there's live musicians or just backing tracks for the performance, as long as their fav idols perform their fav songs sounding close enough to the record for them to enjoy it...how spoiled are audiences if this is true!
I don't know, but I also don't follow that argument.
Acoustic versions are a thing people enjoy...live, stripped-down versions of songs (think Tiny Desk) are pretty well liked too...so, what gives?
For this particular artist, I agree that they should run 1 or 2 backups for whatever they need to perform.
The fact that all they need to perform is a laptop and can't just bust out a few instruments to save the gig is very lame from a musician's perspective...again, audiences don't care (?).

No, the vast majority of audiences don't care.

Yes, LOTS of major tours use all kinds of tools to "enhance", or augment, their "live" performances.

The vast majority of concerts I have attended (hundreds) have virtually no musicians (percentage wise) in attendance. The vast majority of non musicians not only don't care, they don't KNOW tracks are being used. They don't think about it. It doesn't dawn on them when you hear a string quartet intro that there are no violinists on stage. They don't know and don't care.

Heck, I've been doing this for 36 years. I've lost count of the number of people who have told me I'm a "great guitar player". They have no idea that my instrument has only been holding down the bottom all night. Again, they don't know that I play bass AND DON'T CARE. I sing really high at times. I've had hundreds of people come up to me after shows and tell me I have a great falsetto voice (or, even worse, "chest voice".... I hate that term, and there's no such thing.) I don't ever sing in falsetto. They don't know and don't care.

We put on a good show and played songs they liked. Nothing else mattered. I'm not offended by their ignorance. I hope mechanics are not offended at my ignorance over car.... things. I hope the lady who cuts my hair doesn't roll her eyes and laugh at me for not using the proper conditioner in my long hair. I hope the AC repair guy doesn't hate me for not n understanding the inner workings of an HVAC unit. I don't laugh at, or despise, nurses for not knowing how to repair medical equipment.

When we're on stage, we're doing a very specialized job, for which we are (hopefullt) highly trained. We've spent years, and even decades in some cases, honing our craft. Why would you EXPECT non musicians to know "inside baseball" stuff about live music production? (Answer: You shouldn't.)

I kayak. I play bass. I hike. I target shoot. I know all about these things. My neighbor knows nothing about any of these things. When I take him with me to do any of these activities, I have to educate him. When we take his boat out to Cape Lookout, I sit there and shut up and enjoy the view. I know nothing about navigating a twenty something foot center console boat through the waters of the Outer Banks. He doesn't expect me to know how to do things he learned growing up there.

Context. It matters.

 

[Deleted member 365158]

I find it very strange that since the laptop in question is so important why do they not have a backup or two?

Hopefully a lesson learned for them.
Spares and backups on the road is a must!!

 

[perfektspace6]

I find it very strange that since the laptop in question is so important why do they not have a backup or two?

That is the main point to me. Have a few laptop backups that are carried by different people if your livelihood depends on it.

The scenario doesn't really surprise me. I don't know their music but if you produce music with overlapping synth parts, samples, and other odds and ends, it won't be possible to do it live with 4 or 5 players. So, you have the rest on a laptop ready to go. This is not that uncommon. There are a number of hip hop and pop acts where you are listening to a recording with live vocals.

 

[fdeck]

Rather than saying that audiences don't care, I'd say that some do and some don't. There will always be a niche within both musicians and audiences, perhaps a small one, that is looking for more organic musical experience, for lack of a better term. Those audiences just take it for granted. And sure, there are plenty of musicians in the audience, but plenty of non-musicians too. Amateur musicians are a large part of the support network for indie music.

With a lot of modern music, the recording is the composition. Then it makes sense to bring the recording to the live performance.

I attended 3 concerts last weekend, all were acoustic performances. One of the compositions was for violin, cello, and a recorded spoken-word track. It was a natural part of the composition. The audience didn't storm out.

 

[nickpc]

Where were the backups? Backup laptop to the cloud, restore it anywhere. It's 2022 here folks - the band has backup instruments on the truck but they can't bother to have a backup plan for the most important part of the live show??

 

[Will_White]

The original post doesn't say anything about backing tracks, Radke says they use the laptops "to run their show" that could be backing tracks or it could be drum samples played with a midi drum pad, or voice effects. Look at a band like Sungazer all of them are great musicians, but a Sungazer show wouldn't work without their laptops.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

That's your take. And I respect it.

But you're a musician. So, in a way, you don't count. What I mean is that a tiny percentage of music fans are musicians. The music industry should NOT cater to us. They should cater to the masses.

My wife is a big time music fan. She listens to, and loves, everything from Etta James to Motown to grunge to boy bands from the 90s to country to rock.... you name it. She recently attended a New Kids on the Block concert. They, and every opening act, performed to tracks. She didn't care one bit. She got to see some of her favorite artists perform songs she loves. That's all that matters.

I'm guessing here, but.... Had something gone wrong with the tracks, I'm pretty sure she would NOT have enjoyed it NEARLY as much if they had scrounged up instruments and tried to pull off a "live" version of all the New Kids songs. Not even close.

When it comes to conversations like these, I have to take my heart out of it and use my head. Sure, my heart wants every single tour to use 100% live musicians. But my head gets that New Kids should NOT tour with an orchestra, even though there are strings in some of their songs. My head understands that a drum machine was used to make hundreds of hit songs. There's no need to try to bring a drummer to play drum machine beats. And, quite simply, the vast majority of people in concert audiences don't know, and don't CARE, which parts of a performance are live or tracks. You play their favorite songs and they'll keep coming back. Period. That goes for international tours as well as local dive bars.

Think about it. How many bands play Skynard songs live? (Answer: Plenty) How many of those bands have a piano and three guitarists on stage? (Answer: Almost none) The same could be said for The Allman Brothers, Greatful Dead, etc. How many bands perform songs recorded by The Wrecking Crew? That was a room filled with dozens of highly-trained studio pro musicians playing everything from aux percussion to harp. Most bands don't have the instrumentation to accurately perform lots of smash hits people want to hear. Audiences don't care. Give them the framework enough to allow them to bring up the memories sparked by those songs and they'll be fine.

(Ironically, I am the one in my band that tries to get the band stick to only songs we can pull off accurately. But we're a hobby/dad band that gets paid well to play and does fine with our crowds with what we do best. We're not trying to book tons of weddings by playing all the hits that wedding bands play. So it works.)

No. Touring acts should not travel with a "live plan B". They should not be prepared to go on without their tracks if tracks make up a big part of their sound live. (What they SHOULD have done was have SEVERAL backup/fail-safe plans for tracks.)

Again, I respect your point of view. And my heart is right there with you. But it's unrealistic and very impractical.

‘Awesome post!

 

[lokikallas]

There is a Devin Townsend video out there, where after a laptop failure, he sings to the crowd for about 10 minutes while they sort out the technical problems. That is a real pro.

 

[turf3]

Really, what we're talking about is the same thing as the lawnmower factory production line having to be stopped because the wheel vendor didn't ship wheels on time. The manufacturers of a music-like entertainment product were unable to deliver because part of their production process broke down.

Just as a lot of people buy particleboard furniture, a lot of people buy "music-like entertainment product".

You know, sometimes when I'm on the road traveling, I pull into McDonald's and get a Quarter Pounder. I consider it a "food-like calorie product". It has its place. But it isn't actual food, not in my book.

Frankly, I don't see any relevance of the production, nor consumption, of "music-like entertainment product" to what I do with actual musical instruments and my colleagues.

Of course, the people who work in the "music-like entertainment product" factory may well be skilled musicians as well, many of them. Just like there are undoubtedly some skilled woodworkers at the Ikea factory., and probably some skilled cooks working at McD's.

 

[Dega60]

"Prior planning prevents p@#s poor performance . . . " My dad, USMC Boot Camp and others have always drilled that in my head. The one thing I got from the story is - Why do you only have one of a critical part of your show? I'm a hack old guy playing in local cover bands and I have a spare amp and spare bass in the truck at every gig.

 

[Dynomuttasaurus]

Saddest part of this whole story is these people had to end up listening to a set by Jackyl.

While quite different, and you can definitely have your opinion on their music, you also have to really respect Jackyl for stepping in on a less-than-optimal situation. I've worked with Jesse for pushing a decade now on setting up motorcycle rallies. He's one of the hardest working individuals i've ever met. From planning to marketing to building an outside festival to playing LIVE, Jesse does it all.

 

[ctmullins]

The IT pros among us will immediately recognize the obvious need for backups. Both hardware and software. Stored apart from the primaries.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

No, the vast majority of audiences don't care.
.
.
.
Context. It matters.

Sorry about cutting so much out, your post is actually great, long posts by people who give a damn what they're saying are the most interesting ones.

What struck me was that between those two core truths, strange paths can be traced.

Earlier I posted about a Stranglers bassline in front of a not-very-discerning audience. (I'm not a master of hyphens but I do try.

On one hand, the audience may not care, and judging by the poor sound they WERE very easily pleased. What was most interesting was that I'd told the guys running the pub and the live sound that I was intending to play folk tunes, maybe some Stranglers if if they thought it might work in that pub (seemed unlikely to me but I wanted to try it).They said yes, they were up for that, so I did it. Now, these guys are the ones most likely to have their expectations thwarted if I actually sucked, but they were the ones who liked it most.

Different context, it may well have fallen like a lead balloon, but in this case the failure of a sound device lead to the same tough conditions that Burnel had to cope with early in his time with the Stranglers, so maybe that's partly why it worked.

It could be said I should have had a backup device, or at least a power switch or soldering iron, but there's a limit to what I can carry alone, a limit to time available, and no matter what the context, or its scale, we can only use what we have. The way I see it, the show must go on, and it may need some change to fit circumstances. This is why I don't prepare a set list, instead I'll prepare stuff I can do in case the other stuff isn't going to work. It's not a plan B, it's actually the revocation of the notion of planning, it's tactics, not strategy, and it can save a show.

I knew if my gear failed I could rely on my playing. Without that it WOULD have failed.

 

[Mr Talkbass]

I thought discussing missing laptops would get you booted off social media.

 

[Killing Floor]

Hard to quit Free Cell

 

[JRA]

What is interesting is the backlash on this…I thought audiences now don’t care.

they don't --- until they do! no one ever said that audiences can't be fickle.

backing tracks, when used effectively, are enhancements meant to entertain. it's too bad that some bands are so dependent on them that they can't go on stage when their rigs/laptops go missing, but showing up crippled and attempting a performance is also a no-no for those bands and their audiences --- a rock and a hard place!

backing tracks, computer-controlled shows, enhancements that aren't "live" --- they're all OK in my book. i've used them, created them for myself and others, and generally accept their use. but: things can go sideways, and the act has to accept responsibility for less than stellar shows...or cancel...what's the alternative?

i don't see any difference between canceling because a laptop was 'lost' and canceling because one of the 'stars' is drunk/ill/obstinate/whatever. it's a disappointment to all concerned, i'm sure, but shows have been canceled for all kinds of reasons since the beginning of stage performances.

edit: what i don't see = why this situation calls for a binary, zero-sum debate on the delivery methods of a "good show" --- because "bad shows" use the same technologies/methods!

show biz --- don't you love it?!

 

[BassBrass]

I recently found out that my worst technical fault gig disaster is preserved on Youtube because it was filmed and archived. Keyboardist's whole basic tracks, background and keyboard percussion were on a Jam-man c. 1998, it decided to not work on the evening playing at a what we now call trendy, exposed night spot (Green Street Grill in Ctrl. Squ.)
So we survived it seems, had to recreate what we had been improvising and recording for a year, and just play, all my electronics like digitech PDS 8000 (8 second digital delay sampler)(which still works) worked because I expect disaster and check everything... it's funny because we remember being panicked and nervous and in retrospect it fit right in with the other experimental things being done there. This keyboard player had opened for the Velvet Underground at the Tea Party, played cello in the Boston Youth Orchestra, so it wasn't total panic. He's back to playing cello at age 72.

 

[Pings Bass]

The kind of music I like is played live without automation. A lot of contemporary popular music depends heavily on automation. If that's the kind of music you like, you'd be disappointed to hear a show played without it.

 

[darkwasthenight]

SOP for a big tour using laptops would be to run three with two sending signal at all times and a backup loaded and ready (let's call them A, B, and C respectively). That way if there's an issue on A you can switch out for B immediately and the playback tech can route C as backup while he works on A. If you wanted to be really efficient you might have a fourth (D) and then have C and D travel with another truck rather than all together.

Might seem like overkill and there's a limit to how prepared you can be (what if the mixing desk dies? What if the stage collapses???) but if a piece of gear is truly mission critical then you need backup solutions. You'd be amazed what you can run from a stage laptop too - we're always running with light show sync'd to click in Ableton, we've got amp emulations and live vocal effects running on UA Audio at the desk, and at one point the Ableton laptop was changing effects patches on pedalboards hands-free. We walked that last one back eventually but only because the guitarists felt it was too limiting. Could absolutely do a show without any of that but we'd know it wasn't 100% the performance we intended to put on.

 

[Plain Old Barry]

Could I get some more Ipod in the monitor, please?

Nothing new...

I worked with bands all the way back to the 80's using sampled backing vocals, strings, and keys, and the drummer playing to a click track.