Double Bass Pop songs for a jazz gig?

[Greg Scheer]

I appreciate all the replies--both the suggestions of particular songs that might work and the discussion about the situation in general. My approach will be to first verify where the request for more pop is coming, gently nudge us toward including lots of recognizable jazz standards, and include some pop if necessary.

On a personal note, one of the things I love about this gig is that it gives me three hours each week woodshedding standards. There is so much to learn and so many great songs! Time spent playing "Piano Man" or Christmas carols is a disappointment. Perhaps that's selfish of me, but immersing myself in jazz is one of the main reasons I lug my gear through the snow each week.

On a musical note, I'm somewhat perplexed by the people who seem to believe there's no difference between jazz standards and other pop music. Yes, pop tunes can be retrofitted with ii-V-I chords, but generally, they just work differently from a melodic and harmonic perspective. This is not a value judgment or me trying to gain jazz street cred, it's just a musical observation. (Notice I said "generally." I'm not a purist and know that there are exceptions.) If I go to the disco I want to dance to some bangers; if I go to a jazz club I want to listen to jazz. I love the Beatles, but it made my skin crawl when my orchestra played Beatles' medleys at pops concerts. Musical content is not neutral. It comes from a particular context and speaks with a unique voice. This discussion is not about excluding voices, it's about finding the right context for a voice to really sing.

 

[Greg Scheer]

Ironically, as I was writing the previous post, I got a call from the pianist telling me we're canceled this Thursday. Further irony: it seems that an off-the-cuff rendition of a Johnny Cash song was what tipped the balance. The owner wants something classy, not people at the bar singing and clapping along to a country tune. We're going to promise him we'll be good and see if he'll reconsider. Sigh...

 

[Abington]

On a personal note, one of the things I love about this gig is that it gives me three hours each week woodshedding standards. There is so much to learn and so many great songs! Time spent playing "Piano Man" or Christmas carols is a disappointment. Perhaps that's selfish of me, but immersing myself in jazz is one of the main reasons I lug my gear through the snow each week.

All the rest of the discussion in this thread aside, your statement above kind of seals the deal - if your vision for this band is a jazz standards trio, then don't add the pop stuff in. Nothing objectively wrong with it, but I think that if this is your goal, then diluting the "brand" of the ensemble is going to work against you.

As a funny side note, I saw a link to THIS wiki article on reddit.com which made me think of this thread. Here's an excerpt:

"Channel drift or network decay is the gradual shift of a television network away from its original programming, to either target a newer and more profitable audience, or to broaden its viewership by including less niche programming. Often, this results in a shift from informative or artistic quality programming aimed at cultured and educated viewers toward sensational, ratings-based or reality-formatted programming designed solely for the entertainment of a mass audience. Channel drift frequently features the incorporation of infotainment, reality television and heavy advertising into the channel's lineup."​

 

[mdcbass]

A few years ago, I was in NY and looking at Jazz listings for that evening to bring my wife and in-laws. Janis Siegel (formerly with Manhattan Transfer which is not really my taste) was at Mezzrow accompanied by very good pianist and bassist whose names I didn't know and don't remember. Ms. Siegel said much of the Jazz Standard repertoire was from before her time and they would be playing some music she had grown up with. There was some Motown, Beatles, Carole King and just for fun Christina Aguilera's Genie in a Bottle. It was all good, largely because they found something in these songs that they liked and played not like the record but with their own interpretation. Ms. Siegel has also recorded with Fred Hersch who plays Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now and the not so big Beatles hit For No One.
Fred Hersch - Both Sides Now (Joni Mitchell) - YouTube
The Fred Hersch Trio - For No One (McCartney) - YouTube

Young phenom, Emmett Cohen included This Guy's In Love With You on a recent club date.

 

[damonsmith]

Once you have a singer, you have a much higher chance of this stuff getting anywhere since most of the interest it is in the voice.

A few years ago, I was in NY and looking at Jazz listings for that evening to bring my wife and in-laws. Janis Siegel (formerly with Manhattan Transfer which is not really my taste) was at Mezzrow accompanied by very good pianist and bassist whose names I didn't know and don't remember. Ms. Siegel said much of the Jazz Standard repertoire was from before her time and they would be playing some music she had grown up with. There was some Motown, Beatles, Carole King and just for fun Christina Aguilera's Genie in a Bottle. It was all good, largely because they found something in these songs that they liked and played not like the record but with their own interpretation. Ms. Siegel has also recorded with Fred Hersch who plays Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now and the not so big Beatles hit For No One.
Fred Hersch - Both Sides Now (Joni Mitchell) - YouTube
The Fred Hersch Trio - For No One (McCartney) - YouTube

Young phenom, Emmett Cohen included This Guy's In Love With You on a recent club date.

 

[Don Kasper]

Mods - I believe posting the YT below would be considered blatant "trolling"...am I correct?
Thanks!

 

[sean_on_bass]

Mods - I believe posting the YT below would be considered blatant "trolling"...am I correct?
Thanks!

You've located the type of "jazz" pop covers that i truly do despise. The whole postmodern jukebox thing dances on my nerves, and i've been in now two groups that want to play those youtuby arrangements.

 

[Don Kasper]

You've located the type of "jazz" pop covers that i truly do despise. The whole postmodern jukebox thing dances on my nerves, and i've been in now two groups that want to play those youtuby arrangements.

Mission Accomplished!

 

[TroyK]

So, I'm on record being against pop songs in jazz, but a group I'm working with has a vocalist and wanted something "funky". My go-tos for funky on a jazz set are things like Donald Byrd's "Slow Drag" or Lee Morgan's " Yes I Can, No You Can't" or any number of 60s boogaloo kind of thing, but none of the have vocals.

But, I heard David Bowie's "Let's Dance" on the radio and though..."yeah, that could work."

 

[iAsh]

So, I'm on record being against pop songs in jazz, but a group I'm working with has a vocalist and wanted something "funky". My go-tos for funky on a jazz set are things like Donald Byrd's "Slow Drag" or Lee Morgan's " Yes I Can, No You Can't" or any number of 60s boogaloo kind of thing, but none of the have vocals.

But, I heard David Bowie's "Let's Dance" on the radio and though..."yeah, that could work."

So what I’m hearing is you’re happy to paint others with an oversimplified broad stroke and just as happy to unpaint yourself when it’s convenient? So explain if you would where exactly is the line and who exactly does it apply to? Sorry man but right now you’re kinda coming off like Jimmy Swaggart telling me not to **** hookers.

 

[TroyK]

So what I’m hearing is you’re happy to paint others with an oversimplified broad stroke and just as happy to unpaint yourself when it’s convenient? So explain if you would where exactly is the line and who exactly does it apply to? Sorry man but right now you’re kinda coming off like Jimmy Swaggart telling me not to **** hookers.

That's quite a reaction.

Let me be crystal clear for you: People can do whatever they want to. How the other people in their band (or mine) respond and whether or not their audience likes it is a real thing that we don't control, but everyone has their muse. Mine doesn't like pop-jazz, but sometimes I get inspired to try something.

Don't appreciate the comparison to Jimmy Swaggart. I don't think any of this rises to that level. Plus, you've been here two months and I've been here 20 years, so maybe it's not time for you to start judging people here.

 

[Sam Reese]

A little "Swag" doesn't hurt.
EDIT: on a serious note, the forum brings all walks of life to a point and we kick around that point from our countless perspectives. To quote Martha Stewart, "It's a good thing." BTW, that's a Krivo pickup going into a Fender Rumble 800 using some bastardized internal effects. It was from the improv Lawn Sessions of 2020 when everybody was scared to go into the studio.

 

[iAsh]

26113537[/URL], member: 30876"]That's quite a reaction.

Let me be crystal clear for you: People can do whatever they want to. How the other people in their band (or mine) respond and whether or not their audience likes it is a real thing that we don't control, but everyone has their muse. Mine doesn't like pop-jazz, but sometimes I get inspired to try something.

Don't appreciate the comparison to Jimmy Swaggart. I don't think any of this rises to that level. Plus, you've been here two months and I've been here 20 years, so maybe it's not time for you to start judging people here.

I’ve been here two months but I’ve been playing forty-seven years and I don’t appreciate even a hint of being belittled for having played a lot of pop tunes from the 50’s through the early 2000’s as jazz. Like that’s somehow inferior or less valid than your version of “jazz”. You may want to go back and re-read some of the brutal **** Damon posted that you say you agree with before you go after me. Lol man, you totally had the Swaggart crack coming but it was just to get your attention.

ok, take a breath, take your hands off the keyboard, please keep reading

I worked restaurant gigs for over ten years with a great singer who played guitar a little like Kenny Burrell and had a huge repertoire of standards and pop songs covering most of the 20th century. Depending on the joint our night could be anywhere from mostly instrumental standards to mostly vocal pop tunes. Often early in the evening at some restaurants when people were still eating instead of playing standards we’d do jazz versions of the pop tunes we would eventually get to once the drinking stared. We did this a lot. From a show biz point of view it made for nicer continuity. But that was secondary to the fact we were improvising on songs we had grown up with, songs we loved and songs that could touch an audience in a completely uncynical way. Gene Bertoncini comes to mind as someone who also plays pop tunes quite uncynically as jazz. I feel I was bluntly accused of cynicism and being disingenuous. That’s not respectful.

So maybe you can understand why I might take exception to being lumped in with cynical dip ***** playing “jazz” versions of pop tunes as disingenuous novelty numbers simply for a buck. I hate that **** as much as you do. Probably more because I get tainted with their stink.

So you can dig where I’m coming from or we can agree to disagree. Either way having an adversarial discussion or disagreement doesn’t keep me from being friends with someone. Not over something like this.

Sorry I went on so long but I needed to clear the air.
Peace friend.

 

[TroyK]

Just to be clear, @damonsmith and I are different people. I have zero coming to me for anything he typed.

I didn't and never do tear anyone down for what they are into playing. I've got close friends here in town who do quite well playing music that I personally don't connect with. I still support them, because they're working and they and their audience like what they are doing. I actually have grown to like some of it too, but it's not what I do, not my muse. No judgement, no criticism, just not what I bring my bass out for personally.

If you were triggered by Damon's response, then your issue is with him, but I advise you to take it up respectfully. We don't do flame wars here.

 

[Mechanical]

Brian Bromberg has covered lots of pop tunes in a jazz fashion

Love Shack
Walking on Sunshine
etc.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

When Chris Fitzgerald poked Damon Smith, I ordered a bucket of popcorn kernels from Costco. I'm already out!

I really think this concept of "diluting the purity of jazz" has a different meaning in Nowheresville County than it does in NYC. Even in Portland, being picky about gigs and eating are mutually exclusive more often than not. Doing things one doesn't want to do is nothing new in music, or any other field. I would personally prefer not to hear Beatles songs at a jazz club, but my preference for the jazz club to exist at all is much stronger.

What if a jazz cover of a pop song is the grain of sand that tips the scales for someone who's never thought of jazz as anything other than elevator music? I've seen it happen at my own table before. A friend was zoned out for half the set, clearly bored. Then the band played a just-barely-recognizable "Africa," and not only did he start paying attention for the rest of the set, he came with me to another show! I'm not knocking anyone for having artistic integrity, but I'm glad that quartet agreed to let it slide so my friend could become a jazz fan that night.

I also think this type of discussion is one of the top two reasons people are turned off by jazz in general - to an outsider, it reeks of elitism and condescension. We're saying "to play the music you love would be an insult to my very soul" to 95% of the population ... This forum is exactly the space to say that amongst ourselves. But it spills out into real life more often than it needs to, and I've heard musicians talk about this with non-musicians at BBQs. It leads to alienation. This is not unique to jazz musicians, but it's an especially bad look for us.

(The other reason is, of course, that a lot of people just don't like jazz. Metallica said it best: "you know it's sad but true")

 

[damonsmith]

I've actually never experienced this practice being defended in person. It is almost universally thought to not be a good idea by the jazz players I end up in contact with. I have yet to have anyone look me in the eye and try to make a case for it.
My views and @TroyK are not one to one, but they are hardly uncommon. These opinions are out there. This is a heated subject, and it is best that people know all MANY cons before diving in.
If anyone has decided to go ahead with with their eyes open - then hopefully it works out for them.
I am friends with people who have engaged, and I buy albums by those do it if I like their playing and they don't engage on said album (the new Jorge Rossy CD on ECM is beautiful!).
Pretending it is "no big deal" or not a divisive practice is unhelpful to everyone. People really need to know what they are getting into!

 

[iAsh]

Just to be clear, @damonsmith and I are different people. I have zero coming to me for anything he typed.

I didn't and never do tear anyone down for what they are into playing. I've got close friends here in town who do quite well playing music that I personally don't connect with. I still support them, because they're working and they and their audience like what they are doing. I actually have grown to like some of it too, but it's not what I do, not my muse. No judgement, no criticism, just not what I bring my bass out for personally.

If you were triggered by Damon's response, then your issue is with him, but I advise you to take it up respectfully. We don't do flame wars here.

Going on the record in agreement with someone else’s statement as you clearly and with no significant qualifying remarks did means accepting that statement as being your view also. You seem like you’re probably a pretty decent guy and I am by no means confusing you with Damon. But if you won’t take responsibility for what you said being disrespectful I’m not going to force the issue any further. There’s too much valuable information here for me to bother with petty brick walls like this in the future. Our time is too valuable.

Be well friend.

/unsubscribed

 

[TroyK]

Going on the record in agreement with someone else’s statement as you clearly and with no significant qualifying remarks did means accepting that statement as being your view also. ...

/unsubscribed

No, I'm sorry that's incorrect.

If I write "...I'll start by saying that I come down pretty close to @damonsmith..." and then go on to to offer my perspective to the OP as I did, it does not mean that I accept everything Damon posted as my view also. I reread what I wrote and I'm sorry I just don't see what set you off. If there is something that Damon wrote that you feel is over the line, feel free to rebut him respectfully or use the report function and either @Chris Fitzgerald or I will review it and decide if it requires moderation.

Comparing me to a disgraced evangelical sexual predator ... sorry, you're going to have a hard time explaining why that was appropriate.

Everyone should play what they want and/or what they get hired to play. I do. I make my choices, sometimes I'm flexible, sometimes I'm not depending on how badly I want or need the gig and how I feel about the other musicians. But, my taste and musical sensibilities are not something to apologize for and neither are anyone else's. We're all out there doing what we do.

 

[damonsmith]

I took it to mean being in agreement with it not being a good idea, and not being on board with every single bullet point of mine.
Also, as I've pointed out, this is a pretty common opinion, possible the majority among jazz players, so singling out Troy or me or anyone else as being "disrespectful" of you personally is pretty self-centered. I made disparaging remarks about EI and I will again. Beyond that everything else was generalized comments and no person should take them personally.
ALSO, they were made in the context of a person CONSIDERING doing this. Anyone who has made their own decision should feel comfortable with themselves if it is working for them.
We don't know how you sound doing this and unless people are commenting on a video of you doing something you shouldn't take it personally.

Going on the record in agreement with someone else’s statement as you clearly and with no significant qualifying remarks did means accepting that statement as being your view also. You seem like you’re probably a pretty decent guy and I am by no means confusing you with Damon. But if you won’t take responsibility for what you said being disrespectful I’m not going to force the issue any further. There’s too much valuable information here for me to bother with petty brick walls like this in the future. Our time is too valuable.

Be well friend.

/unsubscribed