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Double Bass Position of notes on strings

ErikvanD

ErikvanD

Guest
Oct 25, 2013
182
37
Moerdijk, The Netherlands
staggeub.wordpress.com
#1
Hi,

Is it normal that the notes on one "line" on the FB, let's say B, F#, C# and G# are not on an exact horizontal line? On both my basses (a Stagg EUB and a carved German, both with Pirazzi Weich) the "line" is a bit off. To play all notes in tune I have to put my finger a bit lower (more towards the bridge) each string I go lower. I hope this makes sense... I found it hard to search for this on TB...

Cheers,
Erik
 
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#2
I've never seen this discussed, but I'll try an explanation. Even assuming your strings are exactly the same length (you should check), the notes will probably not be exactly in position on a fine line across the board. The reason is that the strings, especially as they get thicker, do not freely vibrate at the very ends. That's why on fretted instruments you see compensating bridges, and the lower strings get progressively longer, however slightly. On non-fretted instruments, it's easy to adjust the intonation and we don't even think about it.
 
#4
There's also the increased distance to the fingerboard for the lower strings which would also seem to work in a direction opposite to what the OP reports. Best to check the vibrating string lengths (nut to bridge).
 
#6
I guess a short answer is that it does not surprise me that the notes are not in a crisp line across the fingerboard in every position. This could probably be achieved or approached with a lot of setup, but you shouldn't be thinking about this as frets. Another argument against "fret markers" for doublebass.
 
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#7
Thanks guys for thinking with me on this one!

I just double checked and marked the position of the mentioned notes on the FB with a pencil. The G# is about 7-8 mm more towards the bridge than the B. The string length is about the same on all strings, most I could measure was that E is about 1 mm longer than G. I guess the reason for this is that the action is a bit higher on the lower strings making them a fraction longer. The bridge stands exactly between the notches in the F holes and is not warped in any way.

I don't think this is of influence (because it does not alter the vibrating string length between bridge and nut) but the bass has a harp tailpiece and is strung EADG from the highest tuner down. This really opens up the E and A strings which sound very good on this bass. But come to think of it, this might affect the overall tension of the strings...

I also re measured the same on my EUB and it seems I was not right in saying this is on both basses. The notes on the EUB all seem to be on one line after all. I will visit my luthier today to get the FB of the EUB planed and will ask him about it too.

I also thought about the compensated bridges on guitars but this does seem to work the other way around indeed...
 
#8
I discussed it with the luthier but he had no idea either. I did not bring the bass. The only reason he could think of was the strings being really old but as the set has only been used for about 4 months this is not the case. As far as he could tell the longer after length would not have an influence on the intonation issue. It's a shame I was no able to bring the bass at this time.

Off topic: The Stag EUB now is greatly improved with a planed FB and an adjusted nut! It takes some TLC and tinkering but after that a Stag EUB really is a good EUB for the money.
 
#9
What about nut height? That seems the most likely explanation, but this is a mystery I have observed too. A friend had a younger sister with a high school bass in which the Bb on the A was way off from the half position notes on the other strings. I observed nothing obvious. The bridge, strings, and nut seemed in order. I was a sophomore at CIM though, so didn't have the setup knowledge I have today. You do have to insure that the strings are all the same vibrating length. Just setting it between the notches is not enough. And, extreme height difference can have an effect. But, as I reported, there are strange circumstances in which this phenomenon seems to exist even though the set up seems in order. It would be hard to convince me that anything going on below the bridge could contribute to this problem, but, as Sherlock Holmes says, if all other possibilities have been explored and disproved...
 
#10
What do you mean with "just setting it between the notches"? As accurately as I could measure the E was max 1 mm longer than G. The string height at the nut is business card height at the G going to credit card height at E. The action at the end of the FB is 6-7-8-9 mm from G to E. Apart from this problem the bass plays beautifully.

What puzzles me most is that it is not just one string but that the distance I have to move my finger toward the bridge going from G to E string increases gradually. As if it was by design...
 
#11
ErikvanD said:
What do you mean with "just setting it between the notches"? As accurately as I could measure the E was max 1 mm longer than G. The string height at the nut is business card height at the G going to credit card height at E. The action at the end of the FB is 6-7-8-9 mm from G to E. Apart from this problem the bass plays beautifully.

What puzzles me most is that it is not just one string but that the distance I have to move my finger toward the bridge going from G to E string increases gradually. As if it was by design...
Click to expand...
It's not by design. It's a setup problem/quality of build problem. The Harmonic at the octave of each string should match (closely) the open note and the fretted note. Nothing is perfect though. All the notes in between should be in a line across the strings. Some basses intonate better in certain areas of the neck so setup should be for where you play it the most.
 
#13
I'll try the harmonics at the octave when I get home to see if those are correct. I am 99,99% certain the neck is not twisted (I once bought a bass that had a twisted neck that I only found out at home and since then I am double checking that) but I will check once more. As I am no luthier I cannot confirm with certainty that the FB is planed correctly but with the knowledge I have I would say it is.

I guess when I do not find the culprit myself I will take the bass back to the luthier I bought it from last April and let her have a look. As far as I have gathered by now this is not a very common problem ...
 
#14
ErikvanD said:
What do you mean with "just setting it between the notches"?
Click to expand...

Hypothetically, the contact point at the nut should be the same on each string, and it is where the string leaves the nut. Likewise, where the string leaves the bridge should be the same at the other end. However if the notch in the nut and/or bridge is not shaped properly and there is a high spot that becomes a new contact point, which can create a compensated saddle type situation, moving the notes around a little bit on the fingerboard. If you take it in, your luthier would most likely take the tension off the strings one at a time to determine if that is the problem, and potentially do some reshaping. Worst case scenario, A shim is inserted under the nut or a new one is cut, or the bridge adjusters are slightly raised and the notches in the bridge are adjusted.

If that isn't the problem, then the fingerboard might need to be planed, or it could just be one of those quirks you learn to live with on that bass. 7-8mm sounds like a larger distance than I would expect and as mentioned it seems to be in the "wrong" direction.
 
#15
FunkHead said:
It's not by design. It's a setup problem/quality of build problem. The Harmonic at the octave of each string should match (closely) the open note and the fretted note. Nothing is perfect though. All the notes in between should be in a line across the strings. Some basses intonate better in certain areas of the neck so setup should be for where you play it the most.
Click to expand...

I think that the instrument we are talking about has no frets.
 
#16
I would try new strings first. If it is OK after that, the strings got bad. If not ... ???
BTW did you clean the strings from rosin? That gives a bit more mass close to the bridge and may need to shorten the string a bit more (but not several millimeters!) when fingered.

Anything from a high nut to stiff strings (usually more stiff towards the lower strings), fingerboard shape should make a fingered note higher, since the string is stretched and the tension gets higher and the pitch rises. To compenate towards the lower strings the position gets a bit closer to the pegbox.
For the opposite something really weird needs to be the case (nut/action higher at higher strings than on lower ones). For a more or less reasonable setup this should not be the case. Planing the fingerboard wouldn't help unless the bass is unplayable in the current state, but this obviously is not the case.

BTW, did you measure with an electronic tuner or by ear?
 
#17
ErikvanD said:
What do you mean with "just setting it between the notches"? As accurately as I could measure the E was max 1 mm longer than G. The string height at the nut is business card height at the G going to credit card height at E. The action at the end of the FB is 6-7-8-9 mm from G to E. Apart from this problem the bass plays beautifully.

What puzzles me most is that it is not just one string but that the distance I have to move my finger toward the bridge going from G to E string increases gradually. As if it was by design...
Click to expand...

What you describe sounds like a proper setup to me. I personally prefer a lower nut than what you describe, but that doesn't seem like the issue. Mike's idea seems worth exploring, if you can understand him. Mike: You are brilliant! I respect you and most always agree with you! But, you need to halve your text volume, and make your comments more concise!
 
#18
I have an almost new set of the same strings on my EUB and will probably give those a try to see if those behave differently. I always clean the strings thoroughly after bowing. And I did use an electronic tuner. Of course that could be faulty too... I will also try a different one of those. A lot of things to try when I get home...

By the way, thanks again guys for thinking with me, I really appreciate!
 
#20
ErikvanD said:
I have an almost new set of the same strings on my EUB and will probably give those a try to see if those behave differently. I always clean the strings thoroughly after bowing. And I did use an electronic tuner. Of course that could be faulty too... I will also try a different one of those. A lot of things to try when I get home...

By the way, thanks again guys for thinking with me, I really appreciate!
Click to expand...
Right on! break them in and see where you stand. Your brain will "fix" any minor inconsistencies. The great thing about no frets is that it's a constant lesson for ear training.
 

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