• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

potentially bone-headed question on DI boxes

+1, but it raises the question, "why?"

why does the OP want to put a mic into an instrument amp? the results may be "interesting", but they're never good.

You mean the way many blues players/singers did for years, or how many people run harmonica mics into instrument amps? Maybe the OP has a mic and an amp and just wants to hook them up, and he's asking how to do that.

I know IDEALLY the mic should run to a PA system, but there's nothing WRONG with plugging a mic into an amp - might not sound the best it could, might work horribly, might be fine for what someone needs.
 
Probably not only the simplest, but the 'correct' way.

The issue that's being forgotten here is that the DI sends a low impedance (mic level) balanced signal down its XLR output and a high impedance (guitar level) unbalanced signal down its 1/4" output. To get back to the original question - this implies that dancrocker might be sending a low impedance balanced signal into the amp via its 1/4" input jack (which assumes and expects a high impedance unbalanced signal). The end result is very unpredictable, to say the least.

I googled for the IMP transformer you mentioned and it looks like this is specifically designed to allow one to use a 1/4" input of a mixer for a mic. Of course, this is pretty much the application example I used so it makes sense to suggest this. However, how is this little thing different than using a DI box in reverse along with gender changers or cables so things plug together. Are both solutions electrically the same?

BTW, thanks for all the replies. My question was really mostly academic as I was trying to understand how DI boxes work. In the past, I have *thought* I needed to connect XLR outputs to 1/4" inputs. This was in the context of using a very old Boss mixer that had only 1/4" inputs. I'm probably not going to use this in the future though.
 
+1, but it raises the question, "why?"

why does the OP want to put a mic into an instrument amp? the results may be "interesting", but they're never good.

You mean the way many blues players/singers did for years,
the very definition of "interesting" or "cool", as opposed to "good".
or how many people run harmonica mics into instrument amps?
you're right, harmonica is a legit exception i suppose, where it's treated more like electric guitar and the amp's coloration is actually a key part of the tone. i think most serious harp guys use high-impedance mics that are already 1/4" unbalanced, though.
 
What's important is the signal level from the source device, and the signal level you need into the load device.

If you are going from a mixer output to an unbalanced power amp input, a backwards DI is not the right tool, as it will boost the signal level (and likely overload the transformer). The correct tool is a 1:1 isolation transformer and an XLR-1/4" cable (or just the cable if there are no hum problems).

If you are going from a mixer output to a guitar amp input, a backwards passive DI will boost the signal level - not want you want to do. You want to use the DI forward and use converter cables, so you drop the signal level (or get a Re-Amp box).

If you are going from a typical mic to a guitar amp, you want the signal boost, and a backwards DI will work just fine.


[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
You mean the way many blues players/singers did for years, or how many people run harmonica mics into instrument amps? Maybe the OP has a mic and an amp and just wants to hook them up, and he's asking how to do that.

I know IDEALLY the mic should run to a PA system, but there's nothing WRONG with plugging a mic into an amp - might not sound the best it could, might work horribly, might be fine for what someone needs.

If that was the case, why not just get a Hi-Z Mike with a jack plug on the end of the cable and be done with it?. Or do as I do and get a Lo-Z XLR to Hi-Z 1/4" Jack converter widget like this one:

Invalid Link Removed
 
the very definition of "interesting" or "cool", as opposed to "good".

you're right, harmonica is a legit exception i suppose, where it's treated more like electric guitar and the amp's coloration is actually a key part of the tone. i think most serious harp guys use high-impedance mics that are already 1/4" unbalanced, though.

Yep. I have a vintage AIWA mic (yes, the Japanese company) that has a crystal element and i have it hardwired with a 1/4" unbal connection for an amp. This is very common for harp mics. Old Astatics and other Ham radio, aviation, and paging system mics are used for harp, and they're mostly Hi-Z or they work just fine with Hi-Z inputs on amps.

My mic sounds great.

Getting back on topic, I would see no issue with a Jensen or other impedance transformer being used "backwards" from the normal convention. It's "backwards" only because it'd be counter to the normal DI flow. But it's a transformer; it works either direction. The iron and wire don't care which way the electrons and magnetic currents flow. They work both ways.*

The only issue might be jack switching or something like that, but if you've got cables in both gozintas or gozoutas, then I think you're probably OK on that score, too. Otherwise, you might have to rework some jack switching scheme.

I would suppose that any normal DI like a Countryman, Radial, Rolls, etc. would work just fine as long as it's passive and uses a conventional transformer.

*Unless you buy a Hi-Fi unidirectional cable for $1000, then it matters. :rollno: Except for that pesky detail about music signals being alternating current.
 
there's a song on a king's x album where doug pinnick put his voice through a cranked guitar amp, and it sounded amazing. and jack white does that a lot as well. he actually has two mics set up just for that, one clean, one dirty. i could see why some might want to do it after hearing that.
 
+1, but it raises the question, "why?"

why does the OP want to put a mic into an instrument amp? the results may be "interesting", but they're never good.

One band I toured with - the singer did this so he could use a Boss GT-6 as a vocal effect bank. He had transformers/DI's on both sides. It sounded killer through a live PA - obviously not recording quality, but pretty damn good for his purposes.

If that was the case, why not just get a Hi-Z Mike with a jack plug on the end of the cable and be done with it?. Or do as I do and get a Lo-Z XLR to Hi-Z 1/4" Jack converter widget like this one:

Invalid Link Removed

Because, when your transformer breaks on tour, in the middle of a three week engagement in Butt**** Alberta, and it's used in an integral part of the band's sound, you might want a plan B. :D
 
I recall the only difference between an Instrument amp and a PA amp was the instrument amp had two channels and the PA amp had four or six!!.

Both would be 100w tube heads that you'd connect to two 4 x 12" cabs - but the PA speaker cabs would be columns stood at the side of the stage and used solely for vocals (+ maybe a string machine if you were a prog band).

"Normal" mikes were all Hi-Z to a 1/4" jack plug and if you had a Lo-Z mike outside of a studio you needed the transformer 'cos you'd have nowhere to plug the "Cannon" (XLR) in.

Even the bands I play with these days their PA systems have have both 1/4" Hi-Z and XLR Lo-Z inputs on each channel.
 
I guess to sum it all up: if you want to go from mic to amp and play it safe, use a pre-amp unit. That's exactly what they were designed for (y'know - 'pre' + 'amp' ;)).

I'm using a Behringer MIC200 Tube Ultragain for this purpose. It's good value for money and has a lot of other features you won't regret having (it also serves as a DI - in case you also want to hook it into a PA).
 
...........and nobody mentioned the ART Tube Amp ----> ???

636624.jpg



It has both XLR IN/OUT plus 1/4" IN/OUT.

I use it all the time with my harmonicas into the front side of almost any amp - but one amp I really like to use is one of those Fender BP-15 amps you get in that bass-pack with the Affinity basses - and I stick the ART Tube unit in the line for a little more heat.

For the money (ie: $29.00) the ART Tube pre is just great.

I run mics with the XLR out and have a few cables with TRS 1/4" jacks on the other end and they go right into the amp - any amp really - and I don't get much- or any- degraded signal at all.
 

Latest posts