Power amp sections in bassheads

[shinju]

Hello TalkBass!

Is there an existing thread about what bassheads have what power amp sections?

There's lots of talk that many class D amps are using same or similar power amps (ICE or something). I don't need a thousand watts, so I'm thinking of just getting a used class D amp (even if I don't like the preamp sound) and use my own preamp plugged into the effects return. But first it would be interesting to find out more about the different power amp sections in different heads...

What companies are creating their own power amps?

Where could I find info about third party power amps used in bass heads?

 

[gtirard]

I know Quilter is one of the rare companies to create their own power section - not using ICE modules (Pat Quilter is the "Q" of QSC). The Quilter Bass Block 800 has a line in where you can plug a preamp (therefore bypassing the BB800's preamp section), and the BB802 also has a effect send / return.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I think most companies will use an off the shelf power module. The cost of RD alone, just to re-invent a wheel can be prohibitive. Then there is tooling up to manufacture them. Even for those who do roll their own, I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in sound. Power amp sections really should be fairly transparent. Most of an amp's signature sound should be happening in the front end.

 

[shinju]

I think most companies will use an off the shelf power module. The cost of RD alone, just to re-invent a wheel can be prohibitive. Then there is tooling up to manufacture them. Even for those who do roll their own, I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in sound. Power amp sections really should be fairly transparent. Most of an amp's signature sound should be happening in the front end.

It would be very interesting to find out which off-the-shelf power modules each company / amp model is using.

 

[basscooker]

Why?

In a round about way, it doesn't really matter. Designers can implement the same black box differently. Much like recipes, the same ingredients used differently can yield different results.

I think Mark Bass and Ampeg roll their own class d sections. I also think I've read here that some of the Mark Bass heads are actually class A/B and their size and weight are small due to power supply design, not amp topology.

The main thing is really that power amps are rated realistically and stay clean when pushing higher levels.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

From my background as a technician, I think I'd prefer an amp that used an off the shelf power module such as ICE vs something created in house. A company can change how they do things and relegate their module to unobtainium. If you have an amp with a non-proprietary power module, it seems you have a much better chance of repairing it, if the module fails.
That's not to say someone couldn't repair the odd module, but even if you could find someone willing to try, it might not be worth the cost in labor to do so.

 

[Smokey P]

Why?

In a round about way, it doesn't really matter. Designers can implement the same black box differently. Much like recipes, the same ingredients used differently can yield different results.

I think Mark Bass and Ampeg roll their own class d sections. I also think I've read here that some of the Mark Bass heads are actually class A/B and their size and weight are small due to power supply design, not amp topology.

The main thing is really that power amps are rated realistically and stay clean when pushing higher levels.

Not really a great “why?” Here but I gotta say, interesting to find out ampeg and markbass are possibly designing their own proprietary power amp sections.


OP, if you’re looking for a used class D head to power your pre I am still very surprised by how great the “power amp in” input on my PF500 and those can be found pretty cheap on the used market, sub 300 bones usually. But, for a class D head it weighs as much as an old SWR 350 and I never liked the amp til I started bypassing the pre amp. I had a somewhat related thread in pre/power amp stuff and the Oracle->Pf500 power section= Really slamming and convincing old school ampeg tone ime.
There’s also something on sweet water called the ISP Technologies stealth power amp that looks cool and not very expensive!

 

[agedhorse]

Hello TalkBass!

Is there an existing thread about what bassheads have what power amp sections?

There's lots of talk that many class D amps are using same or similar power amps (ICE or something). I don't need a thousand watts, so I'm thinking of just getting a used class D amp (even if I don't like the preamp sound) and use my own preamp plugged into the effects return. But first it would be interesting to find out more about the different power amp sections in different heads...

What companies are creating their own power amps?

Where could I find info about third party power amps used in bass heads?

Using the effects return is usually a reasonable (and easy) way to do this.

Most manufacturers use the ICEPower platform because they have proven over the years to be the most reliable on the market. Those using their own designs have consistently struggled with reliability issues due to it being MUCH harder to design for reliability than their engineers (and marketing folks) realized.

I have designed around ICEPower since almost their beginning, first for pro audio products, then for bass amps. My experience is that they have been consistently reliable.

 

[klattman]

That isp amp is 80-90w RMS. If it was closer to 200W in the same form factor it would be a big deal. Of course it’s aimed at guitarists, where that is plenty in that case.

hoping to find something small that can take an XLR and or a 1/4. And drive a speaker, but without the preamp. Doesn’t seem to exist.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Not really a great “why?” Here but I gotta say, interesting to find out ampeg and markbass are possibly designing their own proprietary power amp sections.


OP, if you’re looking for a used class D head to power your pre I am still very surprised by how great the “power amp in” input on my PF500 and those can be found pretty cheap on the used market, sub 300 bones usually. But, for a class D head it weighs as much as an old SWR 350 and I never liked the amp til I started bypassing the pre amp. I had a somewhat related thread in pre/power amp stuff and the Oracle->Pf500 power section= Really slamming and convincing old school ampeg tone ime.
There’s also something on sweet water called the ISP Technologies stealth power amp that looks cool and not very expensive!

Ampeg does not create thier own power sections.

They buy them from a supplier in China. Like everyone else.


They build amps. They don't build the parts in the amps.

 

[Spent]

I know Quilter is one of the rare companies to create their own power section - not using ICE modules (Pat Quilter is the "Q" of QSC). The Quilter Bass Block 800 has a line in where you can plug a preamp (therefore bypassing the BB800's preamp section), and the BB802 also has a effect send / return.

This is exactly why I bought a BB800. I have an embarrassing large number of preamps, in both rack and pedal form. Getting tired of carting my Crown power amp around, I began looking for a small, class D amp. Long (boring) story short, I picked up a BB800 as soon as they came out and have never looked back. Over the years I actually ended up using the existing, and not at all conventional, preamp section most if the time; it’s surprisingly useful. Recently, I have been running a Mesa Subway Bass DI directly into the power amp section of the Quilter. IMHO the Quilter BB800 is perfect; powerful yet easily tamed, lightweight, flexible and very reliable.

 

[Smokey P]

That isp amp is 80-90w RMS. If it was closer to 200W in the same form factor it would be a big deal. Of course it’s aimed at guitarists, where that is plenty in that case.

hoping to find something small that can take an XLR and or a 1/4. And drive a speaker, but without the preamp. Doesn’t seem to exist.

Yeah, I have been on the lookout for something similar (don’t need XLR in though) that’s how I stumbled on the ISP. The one knob version I was looking at does 180w bridged mono at 8ohms. But yeah, generally agree that they’re starting to do it for guitar players a lot, not quite for bass so much on a large production scale. There’s of course the sumo and older stuff that’s hard to find like the AI Clarus SR (I think) and the SWR amplite.

Ampeg does not create thier own power sections.

They buy them from a supplier in China. Like everyone else.

notes, thanks for clearing that up. Is it the ICE unit or a different one? Not that it really matters I guess.

 

[fdeck]

I once asked one of the major bass amp makers, why he didn't come out with a power-amp-only version of his product. He explained that it would end up being more expensive than the complete head, because the cost of design and regulatory approval would have to be spread out over a smaller number of units sold. He echoed the advice that's often given here: Get a head and use the FX return.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I think Quilter is in a unique position relative to other companies who "roll their own" power sections. Their connection to QSC, who is a major player in power amps and sound systems, has advantages that the one-off rollers just can't bring to the table.

 

[el murdoque]

1. ICE power modules have proven to work.
2. All power modules sound the same (as long as you work them within their tolerances or "play them clean" with headroom left".

Why look for models that leave the well trodden path and spend time, money and effort to design a power module that will sound identical, but cost more and have potential reliability issues?

 

[AlexanderB]

Ampeg does not create thier own power sections.

They buy them from a supplier in China. Like everyone else.

Markbass has their own design modules, probably made in Indonesia(?), where most of their amps are manufactured.
Hypex has their production in Malaysia.

 

[klattman]

Yeah, I have been on the lookout for something similar (don’t need XLR in though) that’s how I stumbled on the ISP. The one knob version I was looking at does 180w bridged mono…

I read that as 180 peak, though it’s not clear.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Yeah, I have been on the lookout for something similar (don’t need XLR in though) that’s how I stumbled on the ISP. The one knob version I was looking at does 180w bridged mono at 8ohms. But yeah, generally agree that they’re starting to do it for guitar players a lot, not quite for bass so much on a large production scale. There’s of course the sumo and older stuff that’s hard to find like the AI Clarus SR (I think) and the SWR amplite.



notes, thanks for clearing that up. Is it the ICE unit or a different one? Not that it really matters I guess.

I don't know that one man.

 

[SLPimp]

AgedHorse already closed the door on the discussion, just listen and move on.

 

[agedhorse]

Ampeg does not create thier own power sections.

They buy them from a supplier in China. Like everyone else.


They build amps. They don't build the parts in the amps.

No sir, wrong again.

Ampeg did in fact design their own amps and power amps. They are unique to Ampeg, the entire product is manufactured in China from Ampeg designs.

Most class D amplifier modules used in this market are NOT designed or manufactured in China. They are designed in either the US, Denmark, Italy or the UK and manufactured mostly in Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines and Vietnam.