Power Conditioner vs EMI/RFI surge protector

[rohi]

How can any "power conditioner" mitigate single coil buzz when the noise enters the pickup via radiation rather than having anything to do with the power line?

With all due respect, I don't know and was hoping maybe you could explain it. I don't have the technical knowledge on the engineering side of it, but I can say wholeheartedly that it indeed reduces buzzing with single coil pups.

 

[Eddie LeBlanc]

I don't like more stuff the add to the stage and me schlepping around. But I do use a Tripp-Lite Surge protector just to be safe. Plus it adds additional AC sockets. It does some filtering, but is mainly there to protect. And if you need an extension cord to connect, has a 6 foot on it. And it is relatively inexpensive.
TRIPP LITE ISOBAR4ULTRA 6 Feet 4 Outlets 3330 Joules Surge Suppressor - Newegg.com

And they even have simpler versions for less $$ too.
Tripp Lite Surge Protector Power Strip 120V 7 Outlet 7' Cord 2160 Joules - 7 x NEMA 5-15R - 1800 VA - 2160 J - 120 V AC Input - 120 V AC Output - Newegg.com

 

[rohi]

only regret I have is not buying the slightly bigger one with more outlets since my guitarists keep wanting to plug into my AC-215A before me.

FWIW, my guitarist and I shared a single AC215a for a gig, it did just fine. Cleared up his notoriously buzzy Tele. Now we have 2.

 

[Kevan Campbell]

FWIW, my guitarist and I shared a single AC215a for a gig, it did just fine. Cleared up his notoriously buzzy Tele. Now we have 2.

Oh I’ve shared my AC215a before, I just don’t LIKE to.

I usually run my B Amp off of one outlet and my pedalboard off of another, so any sharing means I’ve got to find other means to power my setup (to say nothing of my Lasko stage fan!).

 

[SlappityPoppity]

So I found a picture of my power conditioner, and it's a Numark RC8 I believe. I think the picture attached

 

[SlappityPoppity]

So I found a picture of my power conditioner, and it's a Numark RC8 I believe. I think the picture attached

Also, my pedalboard is waaaaay different now so just ignore that lol

 

[John6]

Hey y'all, I'm trying to downsize my rig a little bit. I have a rack mounted Hartke LH500 and a rack mounted Fishman power conditioner. The rack case is just bigger and heavier than my Rumble 115 cab and I'm tired of it lol. My question is, do the surge protectors with EMI/RFI filtering like this one (Invalid Link Removed) do the same job as the power conditioner? If not, how do they differ?

Thanks y'all!
Anthony

A properly built power supply (which 90% of all amplifiers have) can handle ANYTHING the electric grid throws at it. To get that UL listing they have to undergo things no one will ever see at an outlet.
I have been using a Hartke 3500 since 1992 with no protection and that has including lots of generators.

 

[johnson79]

Surge protection is a good idea for any expensive electrical components. The trick is to tier the protection. If a spike comes through the line and the main service entrance isn't protected, your power strip or rack is probably not going to do much protecting. So your main is 50-100KA per phase for residential then you'd step down to 10KA like these little guys. In a commercial building, you'd be more like 200KA and step down at the branch panels with 100KA and down again at the point of use. I've seen what a lack of protection can do and it's very costly.
I have one in my rack. It makes plugging multiple things in easy, and it's some added protection.

 

[4stringmf]

I have been wanting to know the same thing as the title of this post is. After a TON of troubleshooting, cords, different bases, pedals, etc. etc...….. I have at times some loud noise in the background coming from the speakers. When I touch the metal on the cord input to my bass, the sound goes away. Just when I thought I had a grounding issue with the electronics in my bass, I noticed that my head was plugged into a cheapo power strip. So when I tried plugging directly into the wall outlet, all that noise went away. But now when something else is plugged into the outlet right next to it only some (not as loud) of that noise comes back. The sound of the noise is more of a hissing/ white noise sound.

Would a good surge protector with so called filtering help (I'm talking the power strip looking kind)?
Thanks fellas.

 

[abarson]

Some extra food for thought on the cases, with my Tubeworks RT-3300 as the head:

1. The Gator full length fiberglass rack case offered excellent protection but seemed to amplify the fan noise, like a wind tunnel. That may or may not be an issue with your Hartke, but I couldn't tolerate it. The amp wouldn't fit the shallow depth model.
   
2. I replaced that with a Kaces 2U soft rack case which works fine, but it seems to act like insulation and captures heat. Granted the TW is much older than your Hartke and might dissipate heat differently.

Both head and case are now looking for a new home.

 

[Jim C]

How can any "power conditioner" mitigate single coil buzz when the noise enters the pickup via radiation rather than having anything to do with the power line?

Correct answer:
The ones that are mounted in a RF shielded enclosure to include the entire band!

Smart A$$ answer:
The guys at Monster Cable are working on this challenge right now. Since they have instrument specific cables, I would think the the magic conditioners will be designed per application.

Snake Oil Industries are also working on an anti-RF force field that samples the enviorment and introduces the same wave form and amplitude 180 degrees out of phase...

 

[agedhorse]

With all due respect, I don't know and was hoping maybe you could explain it. I don't have the technical knowledge on the engineering side of it, but I can say wholeheartedly that it indeed reduces buzzing with single coil pups.

I have really no idea how a power conditioner can be responsible for what you heard any more than hair conditioner could be. Is it possible that the noise was not from your pickups but from something else?

So I found a picture of my power conditioner, and it's a Numark RC8 I believe. I think the picture attached

Provides no meaningful protection beyond what your amp already has. This is typical of amm products in this class, but it makes an ok power strip.

Surge protection is a good idea for any expensive electrical components. The trick is to tier the protection. If a spike comes through the line and the main service entrance isn't protected, your power strip or rack is probably not going to do much protecting. So your main is 50-100KA per phase for residential then you'd step down to 10KA like these little guys. In a commercial building, you'd be more like 200KA and step down at the branch panels with 100KA and down again at the point of use. I've seen what a lack of protection can do and it's very costly.
I have one in my rack. It makes plugging multiple things in easy, and it's some added protection.

Care to explain this better... it looks like you are substituting AIC rating of the power with something else but I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say.

The problem with just about all these spike protection devices is that the effective clamp voltages is generally much higher than the voltages that would cause damage anyway. If they were set lower, to be more effective there would be MANY more protection devices failing. The protection they do provide is from large spikes damaging insulation systems in appliances and such, but they are a good profit center for those who choose to market such devices.

I have been wanting to know the same thing as the title of this post is. After a TON of troubleshooting, cords, different bases, pedals, etc. etc...….. I have at times some loud noise in the background coming from the speakers. When I touch the metal on the cord input to my bass, the sound goes away. Just when I thought I had a grounding issue with the electronics in my bass, I noticed that my head was plugged into a cheapo power strip. So when I tried plugging directly into the wall outlet, all that noise went away. But now when something else is plugged into the outlet right next to it only some (not as loud) of that noise comes back. The sound of the noise is more of a hissing/ white noise sound.

Would a good surge protector with so called filtering help (I'm talking the power strip looking kind)?
Thanks fellas.

Probably not. You may have been experiencing either a ground loop, or a missing/intermittent ground connection but without identifying exactly what the problem is, it will be very hard to develop a meaningful solution.

 

[johnson79]

Care to explain this better... it looks like you are substituting AIC rating of the power with something else but I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say.

The problem with just about all these spike protection devices is that the effective clamp voltages is generally much higher than the voltages that would cause damage anyway. If they were set lower, to be more effective there would be MANY more protection devices failing. The protection they do provide is from large spikes damaging insulation systems in appliances and such, but they are a good profit center for those who choose to market such devices.

I always appreciate your feedback on this stuff. KA is not the same as KAIC. Well it's kind of the same but different. KA is how in the SPD world they describe the capacity of the SPD. So 100KA = 100,000A of surge. So the higher the number the more it can suppress until it degrades and fails. Surge marketing and specs are all over the place and only until a few years ago were they more strictly regulated by NEC. My exposure to them is strictly in the electrical power distribution market, so that's what I default to. The code does now call for SPD's in more places, especially in the healthcare market.

 

[BurningSkies]

I'd much rather have a high quality rack-mount power strip with surge protection and wiring/grounding lights so I can check the outlet I plug into on stage...I also carry a voltage meter but it would do sweet FA plugged in to the rear of my rack. If i use it, I plug it in up by my pedal board just to monitor the stage voltage when we're playing. I can't do anything about stage voltage sagging, but at least if I know it's happening I won't freak if my amp starts sounding weird.

...my other desire is thwarted by law, I believe. I'd love it to have a detachable power cable...then I could leave my amp/preamp plugged into the strip (along with maybe a power supply for my tablet that tends to sit on top of my amp for IEM mixing) and just run the power cable.

 

[rohi]

I have really no idea how a power conditioner can be responsible for what you heard any more than hair conditioner could be. Is it possible that the noise was not from your pickups but from something else?

My pickup has Parallel, Single Coil, and Series configuration controlled by a 3 position switch. In parallel and series, no buzz-- in single coil position, it buzzes. When my amplifier and pedalboard are plugged into the power conditioner, I have no buzz in single coil position.

I honestly don't know what else it could be, and the difference it makes is audibly noticeable. It baffles me that everyone in this thread is treating it like snake oil, when I can absolutely hear a mitigation in buzz. I'd love to know the theory behind it, but I don't think I'll find anyone in this thread who takes it seriously enough to explain it.

 

[seamonkey]

If your head has a buzz that goes away when you plug into a "power conditioner" then your head is broken.

I've said it before and will say it again that many low cost watt meters now log voltage, current, and events. Some with bluetooth to let you get a spreadsheet. Any power conditioner that actually does anything should add a logging output to show the users just what the conditioner just saved them from. Right now it all looks like placebo and anecdotes. Some real data would be useful.

Gee - I sound just like this on other threads. I say get some real measurements. It is easy to do these days. Manufacturers just don't want to add it because it would give away the fact that some of what they claim isn't true.

 

[agedhorse]

I always appreciate your feedback on this stuff. KA is not the same as KAIC. Well it's kind of the same but different. KA is how in the SPD world they describe the capacity of the SPD. So 100KA = 100,000A of surge. So the higher the number the more it can suppress until it degrades and fails. Surge marketing and specs are all over the place and only until a few years ago were they more strictly regulated by NEC. My exposure to them is strictly in the electrical power distribution market, so that's what I default to. The code does now call for SPD's in more places, especially in the healthcare market.

OK, you jumped the track a bit by talking about the ratings of surge protection devices themselves. Interestingly, this requirement is almost directly proportional to the AIC rating of the supply because the limitations of the spike energy is closely tied to the source impedance (not 100% tied because different causes of "spikes" and where they are introduced into the electrical system, contain different amounts of available energy). I come from the industrial controls world and used to design and service such systems.

Since the consumer "plug connected" devices are intended for (and UL listed for) use on branch circuits, it's rare (in the non-commercial, non-industrial world) to see more than 10k AIC, thus the 10kA surge current rating. Of course, the surge rating is for a VERY limited time span, because as the time duration of the spike increases, so does the energy that the SPD needs to absorb/dissipate.

In amplifier power supply design, there are several components that serve to effectively absorb and dissipate as well as reject such voltage spikes (responsible for surge currents). They are input chokes, NTC thermstors, MOV's, transformers, capacitors and zener diodes (or ZVP devices). All of these act together to reject, absorb and dissipate transient spike energy, and because the source impedance can be made higher for these spike signals (because of the characteristic rise time), the protection provided within a quality amp can be an order of magnitude better than what a generic bulk consumer device can provide. This is why I don't recommend external power "protection" device and beneficial for any amps I have designed.

 

[agedhorse]

My pickup has Parallel, Single Coil, and Series configuration controlled by a 3 position switch. In parallel and series, no buzz-- in single coil position, it buzzes. When my amplifier and pedalboard are plugged into the power conditioner, I have no buzz in single coil position.

I honestly don't know what else it could be, and the difference it makes is audibly noticeable. It baffles me that everyone in this thread is treating it like snake oil, when I can absolutely hear a mitigation in buzz. I'd love to know the theory behind it, but I don't think I'll find anyone in this thread who takes it seriously enough to explain it.

I would like to know why.