Poweramp "Voicing"

[gstaats]

Good afternoon fellow TBers...

I was helping out a friend who was having issues in his band classroom (local school district). He has a small mixer, a power and a couple large speakers on the wall to use in the band room. One speaker sounded like it was dying or having issues. I did a lot of elementary troubleshooting (seeing which component the problem followed.) It turned out to be the right channel of the power amp was dead/dying. He was using a Behringer iNuke amp (not sure which one). I brought along extra cables and a power amp if needed. The amp I had was a crown XLS-1502 that I use with my bass rig. When I ran them side by side, (left speaker the iNuke, right speaker the XLS-1502) the XLS-1502 just sounded amazing compared to the iNuke with the same signal. It was clearer, the sound was tighter and it sounded like the literal wool was pulled off of the signal. This was a head-to head comparison with both playing at the same time - no "sound memory" needed. Is there this much difference between power amps?

 

[agedhorse]

It's much more likely that there are additional defects in the existing power amp, or if there is DSP involved on the existing amp, the (poor) programming of the DSP is responsible.

 

[gstaats]

It's much more likely that there are additional defects in the existing power amp, or if there is DSP involved on the existing amp, the (poor) programming of the DSP is responsible.

Thanks for the fast reply. I'll check for dsp settings and see if there is a factory reset option next time.

 

[Analogeezer]

Good afternoon fellow TBers...

I was helping out a friend who was having issues in his band classroom (local school district). He has a small mixer, a power and a couple large speakers on the wall to use in the band room. One speaker sounded like it was dying or having issues. I did a lot of elementary troubleshooting (seeing which component the problem followed.) It turned out to be the right channel of the power amp was dead/dying. He was using a Behringer iNuke amp (not sure which one). I brought along extra cables and a power amp if needed. The amp I had was a crown XLS-1502 that I use with my bass rig. When I ran them side by side, (left speaker the iNuke, right speaker the XLS-1502) the XLS-1502 just sounded amazing compared to the iNuke with the same signal. It was clearer, the sound was tighter and it sounded like the literal wool was pulled off of the signal. This was a head-to head comparison with both playing at the same time - no "sound memory" needed. Is there this much difference between power amps?

If the right channel is dead/dying it sounds like the other channel is on it's way.

Electronics failure is common with Behringer products, the issue is there is really no service available for these amps (most shops will not touch them, because the resale value is so low people don't want to pay to fix them and getting parts is problematic).

The money saved buying a Behringer product is not saved when they fail and you just have to throw it away and buy something else.

It's not just a "made in China" thing as most lower cost amps on the market these days are built in China. But you really can't go wrong with products from QSC and Crown, even the lower end stuff.

I have a 33 year old QSC poweramp (a Series I 1400) which has never even tripped the circuit breaker in the 33 years I have owned it.

The school cheaped out and now they have been burned by that decision, a pity really.

Analogeezer

 

[Redbrangus]

When someone starts talking about a problem with a PA, I typically bail the moment I encounter the word Behringer.

 

[Analogeezer]

When someone starts talking about a problem with a PA, I typically bail the moment I encounter the word Behringer.

Yeah I told this story before but the last band I was in, the drummer decided he was going to start a band so he buys a drumset (he was very good but had not played in about 20 years) and then a PA.

Some sort of Behringer powered mixer, supposed to be like 1200 watts or something and a couple of Behringer speakers on sticks.

Well he had only played some music through the system so when we start playing (guitar/bass/drums) I am singing and you can barely hear the PA. It's pretty much pegging out, clipping now and then but was not very loud at all.

We all agreed at the end it seemed like there was some promise in trying to put something together so I told the drummer "hey do you mind if I bring some PA gear over next time?"

So I brought a 12 channel Mackie Onxy, a QSC PLX-1602 and a pair of JBL Sound factor monitor speakers (they used 12" drivers) the cheapest ones JBL sold back then. Oh yeah I also brought along my Alesis Wedge F/X uit which is not the greatest effects unit (it's basically a MidiVerb IV in a desktop unit) but it sounded amazing compared to the built in FX in the Behringer powered mixer.

The guy was blown away at how loud and clear it was and was even more blown away when he found out the money in that stuff I brought over was maybe $200 than he spent on the Behringer rig.

So he promptly sent it back and we used my stuff until later one he bought the old PA from my keyboard player from the last band; which unfortunately had a Behringer rack mixer but it was not too bad.

We combined that with an effects/dynamics/power amp rack I had and my monitors and had a very credible system for small gigs and it wailed at practice.

I actually did wind up buying a Behringer mixer later on (sort of like a Mackie 1642 but with even more features) and it's not bad, but we only ever used it at practice so we could keep the other rig loaded in the trailer for gigs.

I do own some other Behringer stuff but none of it for critical stuff, a handful of DI's for when I did sound for multiple groups at a venue and didn't want to get my good DI's stolen, a headphone amp, a distribution amp, that kind of stuff. Nothing mission critical really.

The issue is with this cheap gear (Behringer, Alto and others) it's generally kinda mediocre sounding and prone to failure and the resale on it is crap.

I know a lotta live guys swear by the X2 for live use, but I'd get a Presonus or something else for that if I was in that market. Much better choices out there frankly.

Analogeezer

 

[Ric5]

When someone starts talking about a problem with a PA, I typically bail the moment I encounter the word Behringer.

Ya Behringer is not known as a high end brand

 

[Bassamatic]

I never go near anything with power and Behringer. They just skimp too much on the design and critical parts. In general, I try to avoid anything to do with "Ripoff Rudy". The line level products usually work OK, since they are copied from other, well-designed items (You can usually spot the original product that Behringer copied to produce cheaper.), but you just can't cheapen power amps if you want them to perform and last.

 

[trevcda]

Ya Behringer is not known as a high end brand

Remember this mantra anytime you feel the need to stray: Nobody has ever purchased a Behringer product because its sound quality.

 

[Analogeezer]

I never go near anything with power and Behringer. They just skimp too much on the design and critical parts. In general, I try to avoid anything to do with "Ripoff Rudy". The line level products usually work OK, since they are copied from other, well-designed items (You can usually spot the original product that Behringer copied to produce cheaper.), but you just can't cheapen power amps if you want them to perform and last.

A lot of people think Behringer just clone stuff but reality is the "copying" they do is to emulate the front panel and feature set of other gear.

Back in the day people said the Composer (compressor) was just a ripoff of the DL-241 by Drawmer but I have owned both units (well no longer any Behringer but I still own four DL-214's) and they are NOTHING alike inside.

The Behringer sort of aped the front panel and controls but the Drawmer just wipes the floor with it, well the Drawmer wipes the floor with just about any hardware compressor in the sub $1,000 except some of the Symetrix, Ashly, and Aphex stuff.

I own a Bugera BVP-5500 which was their take on the Ampeg SVP-3 Pro. Inside the layout is totally different, in fact the tube mounting of the Bugera is far superior. But there is no doubt the feature set and specs for the Bugera were totally aimed at the SVT-3 Pro.

BUT the cosmetics are totally different, just the same set of controls and switches and knobs as the Ampeg but nobody would ever confuse the two just looking at them.

But yeah like I said I don't own any Behringer stuff I would use for mission critical stuff; the Bugera I will say has been more reliable than my Ampeg B2-R has been.

Analogeezer

 

[Analogeezer]

Remember this mantra anytime you feel the need to stray: Nobody has ever purchased a Behringer product because its sound quality.

One interesting thing I have noticed is he has gone into the "reintroduce retro analog synths business" and they seem to get good reviews.

But then you see people selling them soon after they buy them. I guess their Model D doesn't really sound as good as a real MiniMoog.

I would however take a chance on the CS-80 clone if they ever do that, given it will actually be available and affordable whereas a real CS-80 is now $15,000+, weighs 220 pounds and takes the equivalent of a Formula 1 pit crew to keep one going.

Interesting in the bass market they seem to have just given up, they no longer make cabinets, I think they have a head or two, Bugera makes some high powered Class D heads and they have the combos but in general it seems Behringer just never cracked the cheap bass gear market.

Probably because once everyone else started building their gear in China, an Ampeg or Fender still has some catchet and resale value and is cheap for what you get; whereas the Behringer bass gear is throw away or sell it on CL for $100 stuff.

Analogeezer

 

[Killing Floor]

Remember this mantra anytime you feel the need to stray: Nobody has ever purchased a Behringer product because its sound quality.

That’s so true. They use “Watts” the same way I use “hungry”. As in “there’s nothing to do this afternoon, I guess I’m hungry”. Or “this super low cost PA amp delivers 1,000 Watts”. It’s just a word with no meaning in that context.

 

[Michael Vee]

I have a 33 year old QSC poweramp (a Series I 1400) which has never even tripped the circuit breaker in the 33 years I have owned it.

Thanks, geezer.. That's a great amp memory! I owned a 1400 in the mid-80s myself. Used it in a rack with a Yamaha PB-1 preamp and also with a Groove Tubes GT preamp. I bought it for a shallow depth rack. It was somewhat heavy, but I didn't notice that back then, and boy, did it sound good.

 

[Altitude]

Once upon a time, Behringer bashing was a citable offense on this board.

I've got one of their power amps running my distributed room home audio. I bought it ~15 years ago because it ran at 2 ohms and I've got (ahem) several speakers running off it. It's going strong, though the fan on it is as loud as a jet.

 

[esoxhntr]

Is there this much difference between power amps?

In a word, yes.

 

[Geri O]

I know a lotta live guys swear by the X2 for live use, but I'd get a Presonus or something else for that if I was in that market. Much better choices out there frankly.

Analogeezer

I’m one of the live pro audio guys that is happy to use a Behringer X32 (I think that’s what you meant). That’s because that particular mixer is connected to the other Behringer gear in name only. It is made by another group of folks, the very same folks that make the Midas M32, as well as the Midas Pro 1 and Pro 2. In fact, the assembly lines used to be side-by-side in the Chinese factory. The X32 is a quite good and reliable unit used by a lot of even touring pros. Nothing about the X32 (or the X family of digital mixers) is relatable to any other Behringer gear made.

Having defended the X32’s honor and all, I sold my X32 rack and S16 and replaced it with the aforementioned SL32R Presonus rack mixer. It’s a 2-space rack mixer that replaced 5 spaces of X32 and digital snake plus I rather like the 32R’s feature set. But it wasn’t because I was at all concerned about the reliability of the X32.

Everything else said about the other Behringer gear mentioned here, I totally agree with.

 

[PikeoftheLake]

Once upon a time, Behringer bashing was a citable offense on this board./QUOTE]

I was thinking the same thing! I can remember not too long ago when someone would make a post like this and people would flock to Behringer's rescue.

I've always stayed away from the stuff and if I'm going to get something cheap and half descent I will get a peavey or a traynor.

 

[seamonkey]

Louder always sounds better.
One can't compare power amps audible unless gain matching is done.
With gain matching, and staying the linear range (under clipping) of both amps, I defy anybody to be able to double blind test power amps and hear a difference.
I would throw in accurate tube power amps in the mix.

 

[spatters]

Behringer is the Harbor Freight of musical equipment.

Some of it is actually very good. (Example: anything designed by the MIDAS crew.)
Some of it is "bless their hearts, they tried, but what did you expect for 1/10th the price of the original?"
None of it is practically repairable, since it's all been designed and engineered for minimum cost.

There's a place for Behringer gear: mostly in a home studio, where it will sit on a desk in a temperature-controlled room, and probably work just fine for a long time. I own several of their effects pedals, which collectively cost less than a decent dinner for two and are well worth the sounds I get from them. Same with their home studio mixers: you can pay $79 for 8 inputs, two mic pres and input compressors, an aux bus, and a USB audio interface to your computer.

Live sound equipment has a much harsher life than studio gear. It gets loaded, unloaded, dropped, plugged into unstable power sources, left in cold damp vans, and otherwise subjected to massive temperature and humidity changes. Accordingly, reliability and repairability are much more important, and Behringer's commitment to low cost over all else is probably not a good tradeoff.

Relating to this, their retro synths are a great example of something I'm glad Behringer is making. An original Roland TB-303 will cost you over $3000: Behringer's costs $110. An original Minimoog will cost you $8000: Behringer's costs $600. An original ARP 2600 will cost you over 10 Gs, and even Korg's reissue will cost you over 6 Gs. Behringer's costs $700. In every case, Behringer's reissue costs less than it would cost you to repair an original.

 

[byacey]

When someone starts talking about a problem with a PA, I typically bail the moment I encounter the word Behringer.

I had to chuckle when I read this.
Behringer = Run Away, as fast as you can.

I have a Behringer EuroPower 1500 that a caretaker in a school gave me. Story is the school bought it, and it crapped out shortly after the warranty was up.

I took it home and dug into it, having never seen one. It was a carbon copy of a QSC MX1500, if I recall correctly. Even the silk screened component designations matched up with the QSC schematic.

I got it working, but never did anything with it, as I trust it for reliability only as far as I can throw it.

In fact, if someone wants it, you can have it for the cost of shipping.