Practice volume: next trial solution

[tothemax]

We're generally a seven piece - two drummers (1 trap, 1 percussion), bass, keys, sax/harp, and a couple guitars. Our rehearsal space is a large community center room with a cement floor and glass windows on both long sides (basically an echo chamber). Volume creep is regular issue and last practice I was standing 4 ft. away from my practice amp a Rumble 40 and couldn't hear myself over the guitars. Vocals were mud, it's really a bummer when it get like that, and I'm sure that everyone has been there. I bring the Rumble on purpose to try an control the volume.
Practice this week I'm trying a new tactic - pre-practice sound check to set the vocals at the correct level for the room (no music). Bring the PA instruments (Keys, Sax, and percussion) in and then have everyone else come in with minimal guidance. As soon as the vocals are drowned out - start looking for the problem(s). Thoughts?

 

[okcrum]

Use a circular setup. For rehearsal I'd set up the PA pointing back at the rest of the band, and the singers parallel to or sllightly behind it (and set up pointing the same way if they're playing an instrument). Use the PA for vocals only. Then see if you really need to add any of the other stuff back in. In a room like this, there's no good reason to set up as though it were a gig, and you'll only get a decent mix into a small area without a lot more technical effort. It's better if the band is all within that area. This all assumes you have no monitors, since you didn't mention any.

You'll still need a bigger amp, though. That is, unless you're trying to get an overall volume low enough to talk over while the band is playing.

 

[Wasnex]

We're generally a seven piece - two drummers (1 trap, 1 percussion), bass, keys, sax/harp, and a couple guitars. Our rehearsal space is a large community center room with a cement floor and glass windows on both long sides (basically an echo chamber). Volume creep is regular issue and last practice I was standing 4 ft. away from my practice amp a Rumble 40 and couldn't hear myself over the guitars. Vocals were mud, it's really a bummer when it get like that, and I'm sure that everyone has been there. I bring the Rumble on purpose to try an control the volume.
Practice this week I'm trying a new tactic - pre-practice sound check to set the vocals at the correct level for the room (no music). Bring the PA instruments (Keys, Sax, and percussion) in and then have everyone else come in with minimal guidance. As soon as the vocals are drowned out - start looking for the problem(s). Thoughts?

I suggest trying to find another rehearsal space. If the room truly is an echo chamber, a diffuse reverberant field will build up that pretty much equals the volume of the band, making it essentially impossible to hear. The players will continually turn up and the diffuse field will follow no matter how loud the band gets...there is no escape.

IMHO, a 40W bass amp is a bit unrealistic for this ensemble.

The only thing players can do to compensate in a diffuse field is get the speakers close to their ears, and aim the speakers so the player hears more direct sound. Unfortunately many guitarists hate to hear the direct sound of their speakers and prefer to play off the back of their amps. By this I mean they hear mostly the sound coming out of the rear of an open back cabinet reflecting off the rear wall of the bandstand.

Keep in mind speakers have directional characteristics that change with frequency. Low frequencies are essentially omni-directional. As the frequency increases, a speaker will begin to exhibit control. At the high end of a speaker's response the sound will emanate from the speaker in a tight cone shaped beam. So if you want to hear the full range of the speaker. It has to be aimed at your ears.

 

[tothemax]

I appreciate the feedback, we do practice in a tight semi-circle with two raised PA speakers facing the group (it's an older 600w Yamaha, so we have plenty of PA). With a large band it's difficult to find a decent size rehearsal space, and the price is right on this one.

Bass amp: The Rumble has a DI out that I can run into the PA if the bass volume is truly an issue or I can bring a larger amp. I may add another set of PA speakers to spread out the mix (vocals). Not sure why but in my 60's my ears are still pretty good.

One of the things I feel I'm fighting are guitar players that refuse to use the volume knobs on their instruments. I still play guitar on a few songs and I don't seem to have problem turning down without losing my "tone". I can't seem to get the point across that you can't play at outside volume inside nor is it necessary for practice. I'm trying not become the broken record but it's really becoming a drag and as the band leader I'm trying to find a positive path forward.

FYI: We also do gigs in this room, and there have been comments that the music is too loud and it is at times (even with a good crowd). This facility has an outdoor patio that we do gigs on in the warmer weather, and outside the volume is not an issue.

 

[Wasnex]

I appreciate the feedback, we do practice in a tight semi-circle with two raised PA speakers facing the group (it's an older 600w Yamaha, so we have plenty of PA). With a large band it's difficult to find a decent size rehearsal space, and the price is right on this one.

Bass amp: The Rumble has a DI out that I can run into the PA if the bass volume is truly an issue or I can bring a larger amp. I may add another set of PA speakers to spread out the mix (vocals).

One of the things I feel I'm fighting are guitar players that refuse to use the volume knobs on their instruments. I still play guitar on a few songs and I don't seem to have problem turning down without losing my "tone". I can't seem to get the point across that you can't play at outside volume inside nor is it necessary for practice. I'm trying not become the broken record but it's really becoming a drag and as the band leader I'm trying to find a positive path forward.

FYI: We also do gigs in this room, and there have been comments that the music is too loud and it is at times (even with a good crowd). This facility has an outdoor patio that we do gigs on in the warmer weather, and outside the volume is not an issue.

If your the boss, it's up to you to fix the problem. Explain standards clearly, and also how you will censure if standards are not met. No need to be a jerk or make it personal, however, if you do not stand your ground and take appropriate action, you will not be respected and the guitarist will continue to do as they please.

The guitarist are most likely trying to satisfy their own need to hear clearly without any consideration for how their volume is negatively impacting anyone else. In my experience, musicians use lot's of faulty logic to defend their desire to play too loud.

In trying to find a positive path forward, look at the big picture and keep in mind that others are counting on you to control the situation...both audience members and other band members. The guitar players will not like turning down, but they only have a choice if you give them one. Be reasonable but firm. If they refuse to adjust or want to make it a negative experience, let them go and find players who are better suited for the group.

I suggest having a separate meeting with the guitarist to try and work things out. Give them an active roll in developing the solution, but you set the goal of reducing volume.

 

[Stumbo]

We used drum shields we built out of sound board to really reduce rehearsal volume. Good for gigs on this room too.

Also make sure each amp is up on a stand.

No solution for six stringers who are second string musicians.

Ear plugs are a must!

 

[buldog5151bass]

I like rehearsing facing the cabinets. Also, as soon as it gets too loud, stop playing. Rather than turning up the volume, whoever is too loud needs to turn DOWN. They (probably the guitarists) won't like it. But that's how you stop volume creep. Where you start, after setting levels, should be the max.

 

[Sid Fang]

I've generally worked by the rule that stage/rehearsal volume should be determined by the sound level of the drummer playing "normally" on an unmic'ed kit. Everything else gets amplified to a good balance against that, but (ideally) no louder.

 

[tothemax]

Thanks for the feedback. Thursday night will be the test. Our trap drummer is pretty professional and has good volume control. I think the goal at this point is try and get everyone involved in the solution, rather than go negative.

 

[turf3]

Well, if you are REHEARSING for song forms, lead-ins/outs, solo order, etc., rather than trying to dial-in your stage sound, it seems to me that guitarists, keys, and bassist ought to be on practice amps (my 15W practice amp can get pretty loud, if I am not trying to compete with jerks who insist on playing at stadium volumes in rehearsal). Fiddly-dicking around with guitar tone, pedals, and all that business is for PRACTICING at home, or the OCCASIONAL rehearsal where you are concentrating on getting your stage setup dialed-in (which, it seems, you wouldn't be able to do in your echo chamber of a rehearsal space, anyway).

Drummer can use a practice kit, or e-drums turned way down low.

Now all you need is a small amp for vocals and MAYBE for saxophone.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I've generally worked by the rule that stage/rehearsal volume should be determined by the sound level of the drummer playing "normally" on an unmic'ed kit. Everything else gets amplified to a good balance against that, but (ideally) no louder.

Only if your band's drummer has the discipline and talent to maintain energy when playing under the vocals. And physics allows only so much gain on your vocal mic before feedback. So the simpler rule of thumb for vocal-oriented music is this: let vocals dictate the volume for the overall mix.

With loud instruments, using IEMs can help the band rehearse with vocals properly placed in the mix. But even IEMs aren't a magic bullet if the other musicians are way too loud for the rehearsal space. Vocal mic choice, placement, and sound treatment can be crucial, especially with quiet singers. If you record rehearsals and play back just the vocal mic channels, you'll hear how much spill the vocal mics are also picking up from drums, amps, and horns. And the instrument spill usually isn't flattering—it contains a lot of off-axis hash and soupy room reflections. The "vocal channel" then really becomes vocals+trash mic. So with very quiet singers or very loud bands, boosting what you think of as "the vocal channel" can screw up the entire band's sound.

 

[Wasnex]

Only if your band's drummer has the discipline and talent to maintain energy when playing under the vocals. And physics allows only so much gain on your vocal mic before feedback. So the simpler rule of thumb for vocal-oriented music is this: let vocals dictate the volume for the overall mix.

With loud instruments, using IEMs can help the band rehearse with vocals properly placed in the mix. But even IEMs aren't a magic bullet if the other musicians are way too loud for the rehearsal space. Vocal mic choice, placement, and sound treatment can be crucial, especially with quiet singers. If you record rehearsals and play back just the vocal mic channels, you'll hear how much spill the vocal mics are also picking up from drums, amps, and horns. And the instrument spill usually isn't flattering—it contains a lot of off-axis hash and soupy room reflections. The "vocal channel" then really becomes vocals+trash mic. So with very quiet singers or very loud bands, boosting what you think of as "the vocal channel" can screw up the entire band's sound.

All very true. Dispersion patterns of speakers and instruments, and the pickup patterns of microphones should be considered. Many guitar players like to sit their amp flat on the floor and pump the room with volume so they get a nice warm tone. This may sound nice in a dry room but it tend to push the volume up. In a highly reverberant room in just makes an impossible mess. If you can't clearly hear the vocals, there is a problem with the mix.

If this were my band, either the guitar players would need to adopt a monitoring approach that reduces volume that meets my requirements or they would be out. Plenty of guitarist will self eliminate if they can't play as loud as they want. Like I said earlier, there is no reason for this to get ugly or out of hand. Have a calm rationale conversation where you clearly state what you require and focus on working out a solution the produces the desired results. If the guitarist can't or won't do the job the way you want them to, it's as much a waste of their time as it is yours for them to continue with the group, because ultimately you will have to let them go.


I used to run a group that played in a wide variety of spaces. In small spaces the drummer used brushes or blast sticks and/or plexiglass shields to keep the volume down. Guitar and keyboard players elevated their amp to near ear level. We had a small sound system for these gigs with only two monitor mixes. The guitarist and keyboardist were on opposite sides of the stage and had a Galaxy Hot Spot on a mic stand with a volume control. The guitar and keyboard were cross mixed in their monitor mix so they could hear each other with the volume control maxed, but not hear themselves above their amp. When we did gigs in larger venues I relaxed the volume constraints considerably...basically they were allowed to play as loud as they wanted and call their own monitor mix as long as it had no negative impact on FOH or anyone else in the band.

My point is that with the right techniques you can generally control volume and setup a system where everyone can hear reasonably well. Unfortunately many musicians are not willing to use the necessary techniques. The musicians who are willing to use the necessary techniques need clear leadership to produce the desired results. Left to their own accord, most musicians will play at least a little too loud.

 

[tothemax]

All good stuff,
Don't get me wrong I don't mind playing at a decent volume, just when it gets beyond gig volume at practice is where I draw the line. On a different note, last night I sat in on a gig with a band using a Bose sound pole system, that was really impressive. I was playing guitar and I have no idea what setting they dialed in for me, but my 339 sounded great. Basically sounded like a clean Vox AC30 and the vocals our vocals were dead on. It was a single pole system with one sub set up just behind us and man it filled the room. It was a good sized room with high ceilings, seats about 100. Totally impressive sound, easy to hear everyone on stage. I watched a YouTube on the system today. If I was starting fresh, it would be a serious consideration.

I agree very much with you guys and if the offenders continue I'm pretty sure that I can play my cards so that they self-eject. This is a community effort with no money involved, and life is too short to volunteer your time for something that is not a good time for all involved.

My PA is an older six channel powered mixer, back when 300w per channel was really 300w. To extend the channels I was using a smaller 4 XLR channel mixer to extend one of the main mixer channels. I just got a great deal on a Behringer x2222USB mixer that will provide all the coverage we need and move all the controls to a single console. The Yamaha will just be a power amp 300w room, 300w monitors. The Bose video today showed some very cool things about the way speakers works, as Wasnex covered in the earlier post. Like so many other things in life, sometimes you have to dig in the weeds when you just want to play music. But sounding good is important, thanks so much for the good input.

 

[lfmn16]

We used drum shields we built out of sound board to really reduce rehearsal volume. Good for gigs on this room too.

Do you put up on three sides of the drummer? How high?

To the OP - get the guitarist's amps up high so they hear them. Angle them so they are pointing right at their heads. I bought a stand so when I play guitar my amp is about three feet off the ground, angled right at my face. I haven't been asked to turn down since I started using that. I'm usually too quiet. Maybe separate the guitarists as much as possible so they are mostly hearing themselves.

 

[tothemax]

Last practice we made some progress, it did get a little loud towards the end of the night. But all in all the new plan was successful. We've decided to keep to smaller guitar amps and put them on stands. We'll be doing a gig next week in this room so I'm interested to see how it will turn out. The new mixer worked really well and really cleaned up the vocals. So it was a win...

 

[Stumbo]

Do you put up on three sides of the drummer? How high?

Cymbal high. Cut a hole for the kick or mic it.

 

[DirtDog]

Get an SPL meter (or an SPL meter app for your phone). Only this type of objective measurement will rebuff the claims of "too loud/not loud enough". Also, know what sort of SPL is appropriate for the time. In a typical bar, ambient SPL is going to be around 85 average dB, only need to get it to 95 average dB for the music to be heard on the dancefloor. In rehearsal, I try to insist on keeping it at 85 dB. But, yeah, does depend on how loud the drummer is on an acoustic kit.

 

[richntiff]

In all honesty - a Rumble 40 makes a halfway decent bedroom practice rig. It’s simply not up to the task you are asking of it. That being said - heavy handed drummers and volume creeping guitarists make for a miserable time.

 

[jallenbass]

In all honesty - a Rumble 40 makes a halfway decent bedroom practice rig. It’s simply not up to the task you are asking of it. That being said - heavy handed drummers and volume creeping guitarists make for a miserable time.

I don't know. I use one for full pit orchestras in musical theater as well as our rock band rehearsal on occasion and have no problem hearing myself. In the rock band (and I'm sure there are bands louder than us), I'm pushing it but it's not maxed out or anything.

 

[nucman]

For our band rehearsal we mic both guitar amps and run them to the monitors which allows all to hear each other without having to be loud. Bass does not need to be di or mic for practice volume. We do mic the kick drum with minimal amp. Pa speakers facing us plus monitors.