Double Bass Practicing When Tired

[Tyler L]

This may end up being more of an opinion thread, which is okay. To get to the point, a year ago, I’d practice while tired (those practices I felt like I made little progress the next day), but during quarantine, I’ve tried to stop practicing if I don’t feel 100% focused. (Side note: Most of my tiredness stems from my non-music-related job so practicing double bass is something I really look forward to.) Recently, I’ve tried to pare down my “bad practicing,” but wind up feeling guilty about not practicing, especially now with orchestra on hiatus. Out of curiosity, what is everyone’s policy on practicing when feeling motivated, but physically/mentally exhausted? How tired is too tired for you to practice? Do you have any tired-specific material you attempt to work on when you feel like you can squeeze out a few more notes?

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

This may end up being more of an opinion thread, which is okay. To get to the point, a year ago, I’d practice while tired (those practices I felt like I made little progress the next day), but during quarantine, I’ve tried to stop practicing if I don’t feel 100% focused. (Side note: Most of my tiredness stems from my non-music-related job so practicing double bass is something I really look forward to.) Recently, I’ve tried to pare down my “bad practicing,” but wind up feeling guilty about not practicing, especially now with orchestra on hiatus. Out of curiosity, what is everyone’s policy on practicing when feeling motivated, but physically/mentally exhausted? How tired is too tired for you to practice? Do you have any tired-specific material you attempt to work on when you feel like you can squeeze out a few more notes?

When I'm dead tired I tend to work on well known (previously learned) technical exercises. Just to keep everything well oiled up.

Anything that requires a high level of concentration is lost because my brain isn't at all ready process and absorb new information.

I've come to realize bad practice,at least for me, is far more "damaging" than taking the day off.
My 2 cents

 

[CaseyVancouver]

This is a topic that is close to me. I am best at practice at 10:00am with an espresso in hand. The late night and tired stuff feel like junk hours. Same with having a glass of wine or cognac while practicing, equals junk time. Junk time = waste of time.

Interesting, perhaps practicing while tired works while young. The Vancouver Symphony has just announced that 21 year old Henry Shapard will be principle cellist, a huge accomplishment for such a young man. While in music college his only time for practice was 11:00pm-2:30am in the college basement. Looks like it’s paid off. I just watched my conductor and friend (about my age) play a duet online with this kid. Wow.

 

[Carl Hillman]

How tired is too tired for you to practice?

When I fall asleep playing long tones.

I've been pretty much exhausted all the time lately, so that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

There is too much to do during the day. There are just too many interruptions to buckle down and work, so I usually practice in the evening after everything else is done and I'm not thinking of everything I have to do. Problem is, by that time, I'm trashed.

 

[ILIA]

I generally avoid practicing when mentally and/or physically tired (even when I'm motivated to practice). I should say, however, this has not always been the case with me. When I was younger and much hungrier for professional advancement, I would go practice anyway, regardless of whether I was tired or not. The imperative of an upcoming important audition, competition, or career-make-or-break performance forced me to "wake up" for the practice session. Today, the only time I practice tired is if I have one of those far-and-few-between imperatives on the near horizon and for gigs like symphony orchestra concerts where my bass part is buried, but I feel obligated to prepare it anyway.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This is a great subject, and a really important thing for each person to come to terms with. I would break down the term practice into two subcategories: technical practice, and creative practice. To use a dreaded sports analogy, the former is like general physical fitness and specific physical skills training, and the latter is more akin to practicing the blending of those skills into the flow of any given sport. Put another way, practicing shooting free throws is different than playing basketball.

It is possible to practice shooting free throws without optimal mental energy; it's basically just a specific calibration exercise and ritual that requires a lot of repetition. In music, it would be a lot like practicing scales with a metronome or practicing the mechanics of reading slowly. You can gain new skills this way, but mostly you are keeping the machine oiled and trying not to lose the skills that you already have.

Creative practice requires awareness and an expenditure of mental and emotional energy. It generally involves a deeper immersion into the material and feels like an active exploration of new terrain that requires much more attention and awareness. I would agree that this sort of thing is best done when fully awake and aware.

That said, daily life has a way of wearing us out and in some circumstances we take what we can get. If I am too tired to practice creatively, I always feel that mechanical practice (calibration) is better than nothing! It feels a bit like "live to fight another day" rather then just giving up.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I must also add that through the many years of playing it took quite a while to actually “learn to practice”.
The brain can absorb only so much information at a time. Plus no one can be 100% concentrated fro 1h.

I learned , again for me personally, a good 30mins followed by 10 minute breaks is far more beneficial when working hard material. It gives the time for the brain to absorb and process the new information.

After an hour, my mind tends to wander to other places and the task at hand becomes “lost” or not 100% the focus anymore.

When I was in music school I would break up a schedule of 25-40 min practice followed by 5-10 minute breaks. (Timed so I would not wander around and end up not doing the work).
Even a small 5 min away form the task can be very beneficial to relax the mind. I’ve had many “AHAHA!!!!” moments in those little 5-10 mins.

I good 5-6 hours done this way is far more productive than a 10 hour marathon where you hallucinate charts in your sleep.

Again, my 2 cents. Learning to practice, a life long endeavour.

 

[Tyler L]

This is a great subject, and a really important thing for each person to come to terms with. I would break down the term practice into two subcategories: technical practice, and creative practice. To use a dreaded sports analogy, the former is like general physical fitness and specific physical skills training, and the latter is more akin to practicing the blending of those skills into the flow of any given sport. Put another way, practicing shooting free throws is different than playing basketball.

It is possible to practice shooting free throws without optimal mental energy; it's basically just a specific calibration exercise and ritual that requires a lot of repetition. In music, it would be a lot like practicing scales with a metronome or practicing the mechanics of reading slowly. You can gain new skills this way, but mostly you are keeping the machine oiled and trying not to lose the skills that you already have.

Creative practice requires awareness and an expenditure of mental and emotional energy. It generally involves a deeper immersion into the material and feels like an active exploration of new terrain that requires much more attention and awareness. I would agree that this sort of thing is best done when fully awake and aware.

That said, daily life has a way of wearing us out and in some circumstances we take what we can get. If I am too tired to practice creatively, I always feel that mechanical practice (calibration) is better than nothing! It feels a bit like "live to fight another day" rather then just giving up.

I think this is makes a lot of sense and seems to be resonating a lot in this thread. I appreciate you taking a step further and breaking it down this way, Chris! I never really thought about these two separately. I'll try running through more of the "mechanical" stuff my upcoming tired bout and see what I can figure.

Another point that's been made thus far has been kind of a hierarchy of material, in the sense that maybe trying to bring, ex: Heldenleben or the Haffner, up to tempo while tired is less helpful to work on than, per se, working on slow scales and arpeggios which is something most have been working on since they started bass.

So to tap into Chris's sports analogy, practice endurance is something I've been curious about. Do you (and everyone else) think that pushing forward, perhaps on the easier material, could improve not only mechanical function, but also endurance in the long run or is sleeping it off and hoping for a better day tomorrow the better bet?

Ugly_bassplayer, learning to practice has been an ongoing practice since I started. And it's something I love to hate! I want to learn the material, not learn how to learn the material...

PS: Casey, 10 am practice with espresso is THE BEST kind of practice

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I think this is makes a lot of sense and seems to be resonating a lot in this thread. I appreciate you taking a step further and breaking it down this way, Chris! I never really thought about these two separately. I'll try running through more of the "mechanical" stuff my upcoming tired bout and see what I can figure.

Another point that's been made thus far has been kind of a hierarchy of material, in the sense that maybe trying to bring, ex: Heldenleben or the Haffner, up to tempo while tired is less helpful to work on than, per se, working on slow scales and arpeggios which is something most have been working on since they started bass.

So to tap into Chris's sports analogy, practice endurance is something I've been curious about. Do you (and everyone else) think that pushing forward, perhaps on the easier material, could improve not only mechanical function, but also endurance in the long run or is sleeping it off and hoping for a better day tomorrow the better bet?

Ugly_bassplayer, learning to practice has been an ongoing practice since I started. And it's something I love to hate! I want to learn the material, not learn how to learn the material...

PS: Casey, 10 am practice with espresso is THE BEST kind of practice

I think it’s more about what works best for your body and brain.
Finding the best recipe for achieving your specific goals.
It is not a one size fits all kid of thing. Sux, but it is what it is. You’ll end up growing faster as a musician after this “boring %^&” process. At least for me, I ended up with less frustration. Drilling a small passage of complex aro passages 100 times for 2h straight until I was about to punch a wall was not very productive.

As previously mentioned, when dead tired go for the basic mechanics. Scales, arpeggios. Warm up exercises. Arco on open strings only (heel, tip, long, short, staccato etc.....)

But now I don’t play the upright anymore....so no more arco.....(a must admit I hated that %^& thing. Pure insane torture that amplified mistakes 1000000X)

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

So to tap into Chris's sports analogy, practice endurance is something I've been curious about. Do you (and everyone else) think that pushing forward, perhaps on the easier material, could improve not only mechanical function, but also endurance in the long run or is sleeping it off and hoping for a better day tomorrow the better bet?

I believe that you can "force" your way through basic mechanical practice as a matter of discipline without any ill effects. That's just a matter of building a habit, which the science shows takes anywhere from 2-6 weeks to establish before it stops requiring willpower to get it going. After that, the habit pretty much carries itself on with minimal fuss.

As an example, for much of my adult life I was a martial arts enthusiast before I had to stop studying in 2014 when at 50, my knees were shot after a number of ever increasing knee injuries leading to procedures. What was interesting was that once that habit was broken, I had to establish a new habit of rehab after the last major surgery. None of my previous habits, neither musical or MA habits, carried over into the rehab phase and I had to rebuild those from scratch. Part of those involved walking/running on an elliptical for 30 minutes a day, 6 days a week. It took about a month to establish the habit, but once established, it became the core of a daily 45 workout that I am still doing over 6 years later. I will never again be able to participate in vigorous athletics, but it's still a healthy habit and I make sure to do it 6 days a week unless I have a fever or am literally too sick to do it. 95 days out of a hundred I feel better when I am done than when I started. Those other 5 days are just the cost of doing business, and well worth the trouble.

Musically, there has been a parallel to this in the past few years. Life had gotten very busy with work and family and practice time got relegated to whatever time was left over, usually when I was already very tired. Instead of just not picking up the bass, I built a mechanical practice habit I think of as "calibration" about 2 1/2 years ago and have been doing it 6 days a week as well. No matter how tired I am, I make myself sit my backside on the bass stool and do this every day, and the habit makes that a lot easier. The deal I made with myself was this: ideally I would use this mechanical practice as a warmup (see linked thread), but if at the end of it I was too burned out to continue, I could stop, knowing that at least I have done something and my body is still calibrated to the instrument.

To finally answer your question above, it absolutely improves function and endurance, allows me to sleep with less guilt/regret, and on those days when I do continue on to creative practice, is a great warmup to get the motor running. I haven't seen a downside.

 

[Happy Steve]

I can recall times when I have almost fallen asleep while standing with my bass, because the only available time I had to play or practice was when I happened to be very tired. I would probably never do that again, or ever recommend it to anyone.
As someone who ran marathons decades ago, I was used to going out 5am and pushing myself even though I felt tired before I even started. The plus side was that I could run a modest marathon on the day without feeling completely out of my comfort zone. BTW, I had the sense to take a break if I felt I was developing a physical problem or injury.

This raises a question which I would like to add to the discussion: if you practise sometimes when you are tired, does it help you perform better when you have to play tired? If you are a bass player who sometimes has to rush out to a gig after a long day at work or after a long drive to a remote venue, can it help you find the energy and mental strength to put in a decent performance?

Any opinions or experiences?
Steve

 

[Tyler L]

I believe that you can "force" your way through basic mechanical practice as a matter of discipline without any ill effects. That's just a matter of building a habit, which the science shows takes anywhere from 2-6 weeks to establish before it stops requiring willpower to get it going. After that, the habit pretty much carries itself on with minimal fuss.

As an example, for much of my adult life I was a martial arts enthusiast before I had to stop studying in 2014 when at 50, my knees were shot after a number of ever increasing knee injuries leading to procedures. What was interesting was that once that habit was broken, I had to establish a new habit of rehab after the last major surgery. None of my previous habits, neither musical or MA habits, carried over into the rehab phase and I had to rebuild those from scratch. Part of those involved walking/running on an elliptical for 30 minutes a day, 6 days a week. It took about a month to establish the habit, but once established, it became the core of a daily 45 workout that I am still doing over 6 years later. I will never again be able to participate in vigorous athletics, but it's still a healthy habit and I make sure to do it 6 days a week unless I have a fever or am literally too sick to do it. 95 days out of a hundred I feel better when I am done than when I started. Those other 5 days are just the cost of doing business, and well worth the trouble.

Musically, there has been a parallel to this in the past few years. Life had gotten very busy with work and family and practice time got relegated to whatever time was left over, usually when I was already very tired. Instead of just not picking up the bass, I built a mechanical practice habit I think of as "calibration" about 2 1/2 years ago and have been doing it 6 days a week as well. No matter how tired I am, I make myself sit my backside on the bass stool and do this every day, and the habit makes that a lot easier. The deal I made with myself was this: ideally I would use this mechanical practice as a warmup (see linked thread), but if at the end of it I was too burned out to continue, I could stop, knowing that at least I have done something and my body is still calibrated to the instrument.

To finally answer your question above, it absolutely improves function and endurance, allows me to sleep with less guilt/regret, and on those days when I do continue on to creative practice, is a great warmup to get the motor running. I haven't seen a downside.

I greatly appreciate your expertise and wisdom! I talked with my instructor and he kindly gave me some nice exercises to work on (both awake and tired) and helped me establish a good routine for scales and arpeggios so I can add them in as well. Your perspective on those 5 "days of doing business" is one I will adopt on the more discouraging days. I was doing some thinking as well and ideally I think I'd like to add in a "cool down" routine every night as well, which with all of my new material, I'll get that added in.

Happy Steve, I'm not an expert by any means so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I've read some threads on this, have dabbled with it a tad to prep for later concerts, and think I listened to a Contrabass Conversations interview on this. I believe the theory goes that there is really no such thing as training to play while tired, but that your awake training helps to train you for when you get tired. I will say, though, long drives make me exhausted so I struggle with that one too. For me I found that if I have a later concert, I have to shift my schedule to accommodate, since I'm usually in bed by 10:00 PM. For driving, honestly water and snacks help me some, although not 100%. Driving (properly) takes a surprising amount of concentration and energy. And it can be a real bore...

As someone who has several time-consuming hobbies/dreams, I pine for more waking hours and find the question of being more productive while exhausted resonates with me. If there is a way for me to be a better bassist, cyclist, or even worker while tired (other than copious amounts of coffee or illegal substances), then sign me up! Otherwise, I've hunted this Holy Grail and alas have not found it (yet). If anyone has any strategies, please feel free to share!

 

[Andy Mopley]

Practicing When Fatigued: Helpful, or Not Worth the Effort?

May be relevant to the discussion.. Also opens up the discussion to this point raised therein "I do think that thoughtful and strategic testing of your ability to perform challenging passages or pieces under conditions of fatigue is a slightly different story."

Hope this is of use.

 

[damonsmith]

It is a good time to work on stamina. One of the only times I let pizz into what I'd call practice. Repetition with the bow on open strings, trills, physical stuff. It is a bad to work on intonation, though depending on how tired all 12 majors with a drone on the tonic of each could work. It can also be a time for very simple metronome work.