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Double Bass preamp for Full Circle

#21
Right.

I question vastness of the perceived sonic difference between a 300 dollar unit and a 2k dollar unit in a live situation. In other words, it probably won't sound that different live.

But I have yet to test this in the field . . .

I did check out the Equinox last night. The parametric EQ section is nice -- very powerful and you can sculpt the pickup signal with "surgical" precision. The biggest downside is that even with +20dB, it's not quite enough gain given the impedence loading. Also, it's not rackmountable and you need wal-wart power supply. Still, I could probably jerry-rig into a rack. On the plus side, I used a great little tube DI in front of the Equinox and that solved the gain issue. Unfortunately, that sweet sounding tube DI has a silly boost at 8Hz(!); fortunately, the Eqinox was able to tame that significantly. So I may end up with three boxes jerry rigged into a rack space.

The price differences are really key here. Those may ultimately effect my decision.

I should be able to check out the Millennia TD1 next week.
 
#22
Yeah, I'm with you on the wall-wart "issue". (HATE 'em!) I also agree regarding the "perceived" quality difference in a "live" application. BTW, you wrote "8Hz", did you leave out a "0" (80 Hz) or a "k" (8kHz)? I can't imagine "8Hz" would be much of a problem! Gain issues aside, it would seem like a shame to have to "waste" one of the Equinox's filters to "tame" the 80 HZ or 8K (whichever the case may be) introduced by another unit. I would think that 4.7 meg Ohm input impedance shouldn't allow for much (if any) loading?:confused:

-BCA
 
#24
adbass said:
browse this:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=469637

lol

It really is 8Hz, and it definitely caused an issue with a piezo signal, which creates subsonic frequencies from what I've been told. I fried a couple of speakers 5.25" speakers on my VL208, which were exhibiting pretty wild speaker excursion. I replaced those and started using fdecks HPF. Problem solved.
Click to expand...

WOW! OK, I don't doubt you...however...I gotta agree with the apparent consensus of that other thread, that being, "Why?" The 8 HZ boost seems, at best, an EE "wink-and-a-nod" or, at worst, very irresponsible design. Granted, I'm the furthest thing from an electrical engineer but, IM(layman's)O, even with digital recording, it provides absolutely no beneficial sonic attributes that boosting higher frequencies wouldn't provide more efficiently and more safely. (as you found from your own 5.25" experience!) If "tonal coloration" IS intentionally introduced by an electronic unit's design, it should, at the very least, have a positive end result. I don't doubt for a minute that you're very happy with the sound of the Evil Twin D.I., however, there are a lot of good quality preamps/D.I.s on the market that don't necessitate the use of an HPF just to filter-out something that shouldn't have been introduced in the first place. Having no onboard HPF, the Equinox wouldn't help you tame that 8 HZ, it's filters (nor it's frequency response specs) get anywhere near that frequency range. Despite how good the D.I. may sound over the rest of the frequency spectrum, it's one BIG negative would undoubtedly outweigh any other possible positives for me. I'd be looking for another preamp (as you are) or start using using http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=469637 to reinforce your DB signal! ;)
Cheers,
-BCA

edit: Also, shouldn't the 5.25"s have had a crossover to protect them from "seeing" frequencies that would damage them? Sounds as though there may have been a problem there...
 
#26
robgrow said:
The 5-inch midrange drivers in the VL-208 are crossed over at about 1.5KHz. Although an 8 Hz signal doesn't have any direct effect on those speakers, amplifier clipping can kill them very quickly.
Click to expand...

Rob, you just quoted John Dong.:p

So a 8hz signal could cause the amp to clip? Seems reasonable. I don't know; I'm still learning. Someone edumicate me please. :hmm:

Alls I know is that dang 8Hz BS cost me about 80 bucks in replacement drivers! :crying:Thank goodness the 8" drivers were OK. If only I'd known there was a silly +12dB boost at 8hz:scowl:

Here's what I'm thinking:

Bass with Full Circle--> Fdeck HPF --> Dtar Equinox Parametric EQ --> power amp --> VL208.

Thats a lot of junk in the trunk, but it makes my ears happy, and is what some might call a poor mans version of 2K tube preamp . . .

. . . which I'm still gonna audition next week . . . :bassist:
 
#27
adbass said:
...exhibiting pretty wild speaker excursion...
Click to expand...
Although I can't imagine actually being able to visually "see" the effect that an 8 Hz signal would have on a 5.25" driver, (other than shreds of ripped paper that used to be the cone in the aftermath!), I would guess that frying a voice coil with DC signal (a la amplifier clipping) wouldn't produce the "wild speaker excursion" that adbass mentioned. That's why assumed there must have been a major malfunction with the crossover for it to allow a signal like that to reach such a tiny driver...

-BCA
 
#29
adbass said:
Bass with Full Circle--> Fdeck HPF --> Dtar Equinox Parametric EQ --> power amp --> VL208.
Click to expand...
For me, my signal chain will be:
DG Realist > FDeck HPF (as soon as Francis mails it!...Francis? ;) ) > DTar Equinox (either in-line or on FX loop) > Eden WTX 500 > Eden d112xlt -or- GK MB150e 112 combo. That's a lot of crap to carry around just to try to make my bass sound good! Maybe I need a new bass...or just new strings!
adbass said:
The biggest downside is that even with +20dB, it's not quite enough gain given the impedence loading....fortunately, the Eqinox was able to tame that (8Hz) significantly.
Click to expand...
I'm still a little hazy about how you could have been experiencing gain loss due to "loading" from an F.C. going into a 4.7 meg ohm input impedance? Also, a little unclear as to how the Equinox would have helped you "tame" that 8 Hz "significantly" given the Equinox's frequency specs?...and how would one actually be able to tell when, (Rather, EVEN IF! ), he'd effectively attenuated a sub-sonic 8 Hz frequency? To me, the Evil Twin specs boasting that it's designed with an 8 dB (or 12 db, whatever it is...) boost at 8 Hz is kinda like "The Emperor's New Clothes"... Who's gonna know? :ninja:

-BCA
 
#32
BCAlbin said:
Also, a little unclear as to how the Equinox would have helped you "tame" that 8 Hz "significantly" given the Equinox's frequency specs?...and how would one actually be able to tell when, (Rather, EVEN IF! ), he'd effectively attenuated a sub-sonic 8 Hz frequency? To me, the Evil Twin specs boasting that it's designed with an 8 dB (or 12 db, whatever it is...) boost at 8 Hz is kinda like "The Emperor's New Clothes"... Who's gonna know? :ninja:
Click to expand...


Well, the speakers seem to know, or want to know, if that makes sense. That signal is sent to them and they get all flustered.

As a far as the equinox taming that sub-sonic frequency, well, you said it yourself: the specs don't even come close to 8hz. So it may be that it inherently gets filtered exactly for this reason. In other words, the equniox doesn't "see" it, and so it doesn't get passed to the next stage. Ultimately, I didn't hear enough of a difference with equalized tone provided by the Dtar Equinox and the tube preamps to justify keeping the DTar unit. It's nice, just not for me.

I then compared the Evil Twin to the Millennia TD1. Now, the Millennia has a frequency response @ -3dB points (not sure what that means) from 3Hz - 300 Khz, and with the Eq on the Millennia set totally flat, I noticed some speaker farting, especially on my pizz attack on the E string, just like with the Evil Twin. However, the Millennia has a -15dB filter with variable Q control down to 20hz. With the filter engaged to roll off around 35 or 30Hz, speaker excursion problem is solved.

When I compared my electric basses using these two boxes, the Evil Twin is darker, less upper register, more "buttery" perhaps whereas the Millennia is super super clean, has more top end but still has the fatness down low. But that's another forum . . .

For Double Bass, the Millennia is really something special. It does that thing where it keeps the fatness and gooeyness of the bottom end but doesn't get muddy -- the top end, the "air", and the midrange rounds it out nice and over all the sound comes across as very deep, round, natural and organic. As soon as I plugged into it I knew it was the one. I can't say enough good things about it. I haven't even tried it as a mic-pre (just running my pick up) but the HV-3 mic preamp on the unit is notoriously fantastic.

The price points are of course very different between the various units and they each do their own thing very well. But, hands down, the Millennia was the winner in my book. I gigged all these units and recorded the performances. In a live situation, the differences were still present. I wasn't expecting that.

I'm NOT going to suggest anyone to go out and get one though. My schlep is going to be less than fun from now on, with a 40 pound power amp and the 18 pound Millennia in a 6 space rack. Of course then there's the speaker cab and the instrument itself. I only hope people can hear and feel the difference between this monster doubling rig and the 5 pound Focus. I know I can. Again, whether it's worth it for most folks -- probably not.
 
#34
adbass said:
Well, the speakers seem to know, or want to know, if that makes sense. That signal is sent to them and they get all flustered.

As a far as the equinox taming that sub-sonic frequency, well, you said it yourself: the specs don't even come close to 8hz. So it may be that it inherently gets filtered exactly for this reason. In other words, the equniox doesn't "see" it, and so it doesn't get passed to the next stage. Ultimately, I didn't hear enough of a difference with equalized tone provided by the Dtar Equinox and the tube preamps to justify keeping the DTar unit. It's nice, just not for me.

I then compared the Evil Twin to the Millennia TD1. Now, the Millennia has a frequency response @ -3dB points (not sure what that means) from 3Hz - 300 Khz, and with the Eq on the Millennia set totally flat, I noticed some speaker farting, especially on my pizz attack on the E string, just like with the Evil Twin. However, the Millennia has a -15dB filter with variable Q control down to 20hz. With the filter engaged to roll off around 35 or 30Hz, speaker excursion problem is solved.

When I compared my electric basses using these two boxes, the Evil Twin is darker, less upper register, more "buttery" perhaps whereas the Millennia is super super clean, has more top end but still has the fatness down low. But that's another forum . . .

For Double Bass, the Millennia is really something special. It does that thing where it keeps the fatness and gooeyness of the bottom end but doesn't get muddy -- the top end, the "air", and the midrange rounds it out nice and over all the sound comes across as very deep, round, natural and organic. As soon as I plugged into it I knew it was the one. I can't say enough good things about it. I haven't even tried it as a mic-pre (just running my pick up) but the HV-3 mic preamp on the unit is notoriously fantastic.

The price points are of course very different between the various units and they each do their own thing very well. But, hands down, the Millennia was the winner in my book. I gigged all these units and recorded the performances. In a live situation, the differences were still present. I wasn't expecting that.

I'm NOT going to suggest anyone to go out and get one though. My schlep is going to be less than fun from now on, with a 40 pound power amp and the 18 pound Millennia in a 6 space rack. Of course then there's the speaker cab and the instrument itself. I only hope people can hear and feel the difference between this monster doubling rig and the 5 pound Focus. I know I can. Again, whether it's worth it for most folks -- probably not.
Click to expand...

Very cool the TD1 is really awesome
 
#35
Cool thread. Thanks for sharing. The TD-1 sounds special.
adbass said:
... we're using these cheap-ass piezo pickup to amplify this acoustically rich sound.
Click to expand...
Dig. That's why although I do pine for an Avalon U5, 'cuz I rationalize I can also use it with slab, I'm setting aside my funds to try some more mics, and perhaps some nice(r) mic preamps.

Different strokes.
 
#36
Yes, the TD1 is really an amazing piece. I can't get over how deep and NATURAL it sounds.

A word to those experimenting with mic pres:

One very important thing I've learned in using non-DB specific preamps is that you really have to be cautious in filtering the cheap-ass piezo signal before you send it to the speakers.

With no filtering options, the TD1 would have shredded my speakers just as the Evil Twin did. These boxes have frequency responses that go way below the range of human hearing, and because piezo's will created sub-sonic frequencies, those will get sent through the pre, into the power amp, and BLAM, your speakers are left hangin' .

To this end, I ended up running Fdecks HPF between the pickup and the TD1, and the difference is strikingly better. Getting rid of all the junk below 35Hz allows the power amp to function more efficiently and the sound is just tighter and more present. I was reluctant about the HPF because of the polarity flip. Frankly, I really really dislike flipping the phase in my signal chain. I want my speakers to be pushing air, not pulling; I'm convinced you can feel that push and when it syncs up with a bass drum, also pushing air, the collective punch seems all the more affective. With a little listening it's easy to hear when the speakers are pushing forward or pulling in. None the less, that simple filter is a gem, and I'm still getting all the deep, natural, breathy tone from the preamp.
 

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