Preamps- when are 3 too many?

[marijn van gils]

Shouldn't be a problem. I also use three, and they all have their specific function:
1: OBP3 in my bass: for getting the basic sound I want.
2: pedal pre-amp (EBS microbass II): for a bit of extra "whump" with some tube simulation, and for being able to easily switch between two tones that I use frequently (one completely clean, the other with a bit more character).

The signal produced by this combination goes to the PA.

3: amps EQ: for fixing any issues with my stage-sound caused by room accoustics.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Then I realized that I will wind up with 3 levels of pre-amplification. So I will need to flatten the t, m and b controls on the OBP to send a dry signal to the 360+. ...

No you wont. I use onboard preamps, have a preamp in my amp, and on occasion use a pedal tube preamp with tone controls.

The controls in your bass are useful for getting a baseline tone to start with, and for making changes on the fly. This sets what your bass sounds like to the amp. The preamp in the amp is generally set to sound good in the room, and if you need more lows or highs to start with. A pedal is good for a change in tone as an effect.

So set the bass' tone controls for a tone you like, and then tweak the pedal to get the tone you like. Sometimes when I'm playing through a distortion pedal I might roll off lows or highs on the bass to get the pedal to break up the way I want.

None of this is static. You change you controls for the situation. The alternative is having one tone you use for every song all the time. Some people are fine with that, and some like more options.

 

[walterw]

...I want to have 5 emg 40tw...pickups in it...

...I currently have a bass that has 2 preamps in series and am planning on making one with 5 in series XD ...

I want to see and hear it when it's done...

i don't

it matters where a pickup is mounted on the instrument, which is why you always see pickups in certain spots along the string and not others; also, the more pickups you have on at the same time, the more signal bandwidth you lose, not gain.

as for multiple preamps, you also lose rather than gain the more you run one into another one; most are made to be reasonably unity gain, so it won't get louder the more you string up together; if it does, it'll likely just begin to clip the input of the next one in the line.

even if they were all unity and none of them clipped, turning up the mids of one pre might sound no different than turning up the mids of a different one, so what's the point?

 

[Lavrans]

Update:
I got the viva Analog 360+, and I gave a good try, but it didn't give me the "Jaco growl" I was looking for. I also have swapped the Baby Blue II amp for a new Aguilar Tone hammer 350. So between the onboard pre-amp and the TH 350, I'm getting some very good sounds. I'm thinking about the MXR Blowtorch fuzz pedal, which has a lot of EQ adjustments and a fuzz circuit, with a Blend knob. I just switched from Rotosound flats to LaBella nylon wound, and love them! That's about all for now- thanks to all who weighed in with all the good advice!

 

[Lavrans]

PS: the Viva Analog 360+ Lite is for sale. With a powered cab, it can pretty much do what the Acoustic 360 does, for a lot less money. For more info on the pre-amp/pedal, Google viva analog. $400 or BO.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Update:
I got the viva Analog 360+, and I gave a good try, but it didn't give me the "Jaco growl" I was looking for.

You also need the 361's speaker cab for his tone. Did try the Variamp control? I think he used the lowest setting on the switch, and the boosted that.
Also you need Rotosound Swingbass 66 roundwounds.

 

[Lavrans]

You also need the 361's speaker cab for his tone. Did try the Variamp control? I think he used the lowest setting on the switch, and the boosted that.
Also you need Rotosound Swingbass 66 roundwounds.

Since I don't really feel like trading in my Aguilar rig for the $5000 Acoustic 360/361, I will stick with what I got. The ZOOM B2 multi-fx pedal actually has patches for Acoustic 360, Fretless and a Jaco patch. I also devised a patch that combines some of these FX. My luthier, John Mouradian, mentioned to me that Rotosounds are the second worst strings made, and that I should try something different. For what I'm into with my short-scale 5 string high C modified Hohner headless, the nylon-wound La Bella strings work just fine.
Thanks!

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I've played many a 360/361 back in the day, and I dislike those speaker cabs. Acoustic and even Sunn used to love those big folded horn cabs, and they always get a weird boxy tone. Of course that boxy tone helped Jaco imitate an upright, but they are kind of limited tone wise. Which is probably why they aren't used much any more.

 

[Lavrans]

I've played many a 360/361 back in the day, and I dislike those speaker cabs. Acoustic and even Sunn used to love those big folded horn cabs, and they always get a weird boxy tone. Of course that boxy tone helped Jaco imitate an upright, but they are kind of limited tone wise. Which is probably why they aren't used much any more.

Acoustic has come out with a modernized re-issue of the 360/361, which retails for $5,000. The idea with the viva analog 360+ is that it could conceivably be used as a pre-amp with a power amp, or a powered cab. After fooling around with the ZOOM b-2, I'm beginning to realize that the Jaco growl is good to have in one's toolbox, but is limiting in many ways. My sonic style goal is more what I call Jack-O Casatorius... As an old fart who just switched over to bass a few years ago, I should concentrate on getting better at wiggling my fingers on the wires.

 

[Derek Balonek]

This has probably been said, butI believe it bears repeating. IMHO there are two major considerations when running multiple amplification stages in series:
1) Gain staging. Be careful setting levels to make sure nothing is overdriven. Setting levels for optimum noise is important too. Each stage should be set for the best signal to noise ratio, the first stage most importantly. If the SNR is not optimum at the first stage, all that noise continues to be amplified in addition to the noise inherent to each stage. Another important point is that gain is multiplicative rather than additive. If you have two stages with 4x gain, the total gain relative to the original signal would be 16x, not 8x. Keeping this in mind can help keep your levels from getting out of hand. If you want a bit of distortion, lightly overdriving each stage has a richer, more complex tone than only one driven stage.
2) EQ. Don't overdo it. Boosting one band and cutting it at the next stage usually doesn't help. Learn the center frequencies of each band and see how they interact. Subtle use of EQ is more beneficial than extreme boosting. This is especially imporant with stages in series, as the EQ can get extreme very fast.

Hope this helps. You can get some cool tones with multiple preamps, since each of them can add their own tone and interact in interesting ways. As a side note, have you considered running some of them in parallel (if possible)?

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Acoustic has come out with a modernized re-issue of the 360/361, which retails for $5,000.

Oh I know. It's not the new Acoustic Amplification exactly, it's Acoustic USA. They got the designer of the original amp, Russ Allee to do the update. It's not exactly a reissue since they changed stuff. But it's pretty close.

Back in the 80s I used to play through an Acoustic 146 head with my old 60s Ampeg B-15 cab with a JBL E-140 speaker. That was a great sounding rig.

 

[walterw]

For what I'm into with my short-scale 5 string high C modified Hohner headless...

short-scale hohner headless?

most of the steiny copies i've ever seen have been 34" long scale, just like the originals.

 

[Lavrans]

short-scale hohner headless?

most of the steiny copies i've ever seen have been 34" long scale, just like the originals.

I cleverly sawed off the neck just north of the 2nd fret- the length from the 2nd to 14th fret is exactly 15", which gives me a short scale 5-string. The truss rod was stuck and unmovable, so at least it's providing some stability. If you google, you'll find a couple of other short scale 5-strings, mostly 1 by ESP. By tuning to a high C, it opens up the middle and high end for some good doodling.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

My luthier, John Mouradian, mentioned to me that Rotosounds are the second worst strings made, and that I should try something different. For what I'm into with my short-scale 5 string high C modified Hohner headless, the nylon-wound La Bella strings work just fine.
Thanks!

Would that be Jim Mouradian? Great guy! He did some wonderful work on my '67 Starfire.

Anyway, I think the issue is the strings. Nylon wound strings will never get Jaco growl. You need roundwounds for that. It's not too difficult a sound to achieve with rounds, the right neck relief, a good back pickup and practice, practice, practice!

 

[SGD Lutherie]

My luthier, John Mouradian, mentioned to me that Rotosounds are the second worst strings made, and that I should try something different.

Since posting my original comment, I used a couple of sets of Rotosounds. I used to use them quite a bit back in the 70s. The new ones are nothing like the old ones. I was very disappointed. They aren't as bright as they used to be, and the low B string will not play in tune. I thought the first set was bad, and tried another. That one was worse.

Now I'm using Ken Smith strings. I used to use them back in the 90s. Now I remember why I liked them.

 

[Lavrans]

BTW: Viva Analog does not accept returns, or give refunds. Caveat Emptor. Stay tuned....