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Problems with mixing speakers?

Like mine...210 loaded with BP102's and a 6" mid in it's own chamber...Sounds beautifully smooth from lows to highs. Though a bigger cab would give even deeper lows (I just didn't need that).

There really is little point in using anything larger than a 6" driver for mids and highs. Wasted space IMO.

i have an old 210 laney cab loaded with 8ohms eminence BP102. but it lacks of high and mids.
therefore i'd like to try to do the same mod with a '6.
how do you wire your cab with a '6 driver? what's your total impedance? what kind of driver do you use?
 
i have an old 210 laney cab loaded with 8ohms eminence BP102. but it lacks of high and mids.
therefore i'd like to try to do the same mod with a '6.
how do you wire your cab with a '6 driver? what's your total impedance? what kind of driver do you use?

LOL...I have a Carvin BX1200 amphead that is completely bi-ampable with it's own crossover and one output control for each of the two separate mono block heads in the same amphead. And it goes down to 2 ohms.

It allows me to experiment with different cabs, speakers and configurations. The BP102's are 4 ohm each and wired as a 2 ohm cab (I don't care as it isn't a commercial cab and it works for me). The mid driver is some no name 6" I had from some stereo component I had lying around. I've been experimenting with different on-hand drivers and have various small mid range cabs. It tested out great and it's in my 210 cab as my mid range.

I've had the crossover set somewhere between 500Hz and 800Hz with pleasing results. The 6" isn't very efficient with the two BP102's (which are not very efficient on their own) but my output controls allow me to boost the 6" and blend it in nicely with the two 10's.
 
In fact, I guess the more I think about it, the more I don't see why I couldn't put one BP102 and one B102 in it.

I mean, both of them are speakers that are designed for bass guitar. And they're both rated at 200 watts. So why should the B102 'bottom out' or 'fart out' any sooner than the BP102.

And if that's true, then I should be able to buy the 8-ohm version of each speaker, wire them in parallel, and end up with a 4-ohm 400-watt cab, instead of a 4-ohm, 175-watt cab, which is what it was originally.

And I'd have the BP102 covering low lows, the B102 covering mid-lows and mids, and the Fostex horn covering highs, if necessary. (The Fostex is already in the box and already wired with an attenuator, so why not?)

And since the box originally came from Peavey with 2 10s in it, then presumably, it's already tuned and ported for 2X10 + tweeter, right?

So, what do I seem to be missing here, experts?

Thanks again,

Tom
There's quite a bit missing here.

Even if we fluke it and the T/s parameters indicate both drivers like the same cabinet size and tuning (unlikely but lets pretend), there are more problems we haven't thought of yet.

They may both be 8 ohm speakers, but that only a nominal impedance figure. The ACTUAL impedance varies with frequency. So at any given note, the impedance of one speaker may be say, 10 ohms but the other may be 20 Ohms. At that point, the speaker seeing 10 ohms is drawing twice as much wattage as the other one. So they're not behaving in tandem. This is worse in series mode than parallel.

Regardless, one will almost always be kicking harder than the other, so one speaker will be physically pushing the other one around. If they're in separate cabinets, or are partitioned, neither speaker is going to get caught in the wind of the other and they will both function as their optimum.

Identical drivers can happily share cabinet space because they behave in tandem.
 
I don't know how to make it show the quotes like you guys do, so I'll just reply to the pieces, and hope you guys can figure out what I'm referring to:

1) I don't know what 'displacement limitation' is.

2) I don't think it's accurate to say that 'wattage means nothing'.

3) I don't think one driver will beat the other one to death, for either of the reasons given. Why? Because the cabinet is ported.
 
4) A 6" mid driver might well be nice, but I'm not a carpenter and the cabinet is already cut for 2X10.

5) I don't think I'm insisting on loading the cab a certain way, and I don't think I'll just jump and load it and "report back how long my B102 lasted", just because you appear to think I shouldn't be asking questions. I'm trying to learn something here, BEFORE I reload the cab. I may not be an engineer, and I may not be a bassist, but I'm able to think, reason, and analyze, and that's what I'm trying to do here.

6) I do think I run a risk of being kind of heavy in the lower mids, because of the overlap of the 2 drivers from 2k to 4k.

7) I think that, yes, impedance varies with frequency response, but shouldn't that be equally true of both drivers?

8) There may be peaks and valleys in the frequency response, but wouldn't that be better than a gaping hole from 2k up to the tweeter, which is what I would get with just a pair of BP102s?

Thanks again, TBers ...

Tom
 
Atomik Rooster and Myth_103 ... It looks like at least three of us have been toying around with the idea of mixing a BP102 and a B102. Or 2 of each. So, my question would be, have either of you actually done this?

If not, maybe one of us should start a new thread, just asking that one simple question and seeing if anyone has actually done so. And, if so, how it came out.

Then, whether it came out good or bad, we could ask the particulars, like cabinet dimensions, baffles, internal sub-enclosures, etc.

If no one HAS done it, then I think I'll go ahead and try it.

Unless someone can give me a reason not to, that will hold up to analysis.

Tom
 
4) I don't think I'm insisting on loading the cab a certain way, and I don't think I'll just jump and load it and "report back how long my B102 lasted", just because you appear to think I shouldn't be asking questions. I'm trying to learn something here, BEFORE I reload the cab. I may not be an engineer, and I may not be a bassist, but I'm able to think, reason, and analyze, and that's what I'm trying to do here.

Tom

I don't think you shouldn't be asking questions. I do think, however, that you should be listening to the answers.

You can't mix speakers with different abilities in the same compartment of a cab and expect it to perform well. Speakers are designed for an intended purpose. Some (like the BP102) is designed to handle a lot of low end for a 10" speaker. Any speaker that handles lows well, will be less able to handle highs. Those that can handle the highs better cannot handle the lows.

Therein lies your problem. The reason for putting two different speakers in there own compartment and crossing them over is to protect the high handling speakers from overexcursion. If they are both in the same compartment, the one that handles the highs can't take the abuse from the lows that other can. Guess which speaker will blow?

Two identical speakers in the same compartment work together. Two speakers of differing designs will not work together...they will fight each other. There is a lot of pressure in that bass cab in the low end. The only place for that pressure to release is through the speakers or ports. That pressure will follow the path of least resistance and one of the two will not handle that pressure. If only one speaker can handle that pressure, I'll leave it to you to guess which one won't.
 
Mixing speakers requires full mixing facilities, this project will obviously require a minimum of two separate amp heads with eq due to the differing responses of the drivers in question.
A divider in the cab and porting tuned to idealize each drivers response as much as possible would be a very good idea too.:bassist:
 
If no one HAS done it, then I think I'll go ahead and try it.

Unless someone can give me a reason not to, that will hold up to analysis.

Tom
To answer all of your posts, an acoustical engineer doesn't have to actually build the system to know in advance how it will work. By the same token a civil engineer would advise you not to build the Golden Gate Bridge out of Popsicle Sticks, while an aeronautical engineer would advise you not to build a hang glider with a cast-iron frame. You've been given very good advise by people who have a fair amount of practical acoustical engineering experience; I do it for a living. Ignoring that advise is probably not the wisest course.
 
I don't know how to make it show the quotes like you guys do, so I'll just reply to the pieces, and hope you guys can figure out what I'm referring to:

1) I don't know what 'displacement limitation' is.

2) I don't think it's accurate to say that 'wattage means nothing'.

3) I don't think one driver will beat the other one to death, for either of the reasons given. Why? Because the cabinet is ported.
if you don't know what "displacement limitation" is, then you certainly aren't qualified to make an informed decision on this topic or any of the others you listed here.

but hey, you're going to do it anyway regardless of the good advice given, so all i can say is i hope you enjoyed the money you're about to waste.
 
Everyone ... Thank you all for the more detailed answers to my questions. I appreciate them. I recognize that my lack of experience in this area must be frustrating to those of you to whom this stuff is old hat. Thanks for taking your own time to educate a newb.

Also, again, I'm a guitar player trying to repair a cheap bass cabinet with blown drivers, on the cheap, and fairly easily. To me, replacing the drivers seems like the cheapest and easiest way to go, since I have to replace the drivers anyway. I just figured that, since I DO have to replace them, I might as well try and upgrade the cabinet a little while I'm at it. It is the info that I originally picked up here on this forum, that led me to consider trying to cover the high-mid hole that the BP102 leaves between itself and the tweeter. That's what I'm trying to do. Upgrade the cabinet, and cover the mid-hole.

I'm not a carpenter, but I could probably manage to replace, move, or extend the divider inside the enclosure to make a sub-enclosure. I don't think I'm capable (or willing, if you prefer) of moving or resizing the port or tweeter, or of somehow 'shrinking' one of the 10" cutouts down to 6" for a mid driver. I could probably change the length of the 'port tube', if that matters.

I've worked on guitar amps (as an amateur) for many years, so I could also probably manage to solder a crossover or high-pass between the drivers, if necessary.

Ok, onward to your latest suggestions ...

1) "The reason for putting two different speakers in there own compartment and crossing them over is to protect the high handling speakers from overexcursion. If they are both in the same compartment, the one that handles the highs can't take the abuse from the lows that other can. Guess which speaker will blow?"

Having done some more reading, it appears that in bass guitar speakers, the RMS-wattage rating is generally a piece of thermal protection info, which leaves your over-excursion problem as a valid concern. So maybe I could put a high pass on the B102, at about 45 or 50 hertz, to protect it from over-excursion?

2) "There is a lot of pressure in that bass cab in the low end. The only place for that pressure to release is through the speakers or ports. That pressure will follow the path of least resistance and one of the two will not handle that pressure. If only one speaker can handle that pressure, I'll leave it to you to guess which one won't."

Wouldn't the path of least resistance be the port?

3) "To answer all of your posts, an acoustical engineer doesn't have to actually build the system to know in advance how it will work. By the same token a civil engineer would advise you not to build the Golden Gate Bridge out of Popsicle Sticks, while an aeronautical engineer would advise you not to build a hang glider with a cast-iron frame. You've been given very good advise by people who have a fair amount of practical acoustical engineering experience; I do it for a living. Ignoring that advise is probably not the wisest course."

I understand the concepts of abstraction, modeling, etc. That's why I'm here asking questions. Nor am I ignoring anyone's advice. That's why I'm still asking questions rather than purchasing drivers. I am, however, replying with further questions to advice offered, in order to make sure that I understand both, A) WHAT is being asserted, and, B) IF the assertion is accurate. (Or, in other words, to determine for myself if the various assertions stand up to critical analysis.)

3) "if you don't know what "displacement limitation" is, then you certainly aren't qualified to make an informed decision on this topic or any of the others you listed here."

Unfortunately, there is no one else to make the decision. No matter whose advice I end up taking, in the end, since it's my cabinet, it will finally have been my decision. I don't WANT to make a bad decision, so I'm attempting to GET informed / qualified!

4) "but hey, you're going to do it anyway regardless of the good advice given, so all i can say is i hope you enjoyed the money you're about to waste."

I don't know that I am going to do it. At the moment, I'm leaning towards foregoing a separate driver for mid-coverage, installing two BP102s, and trying to make up the difference with EQ. I looked at a Frequency Response / SPL chart for the BP102, and it appears to really fall off after about 1750 Hz. But the tweeter takes over at 3500, so there's a gap of about 1750 hertz that's not well-covered by the drivers I have in mind (if I leave out the B102 and just go with two BP102s). The BP102 makes weak response in that range from 1750 to 3500, but not NO response, so I'm thinking maybe I can boost it enough with my head. I have a Yorkville head with pretty extensive and precise EQ on it, so maybe that would work.

Tom
 
How about yanking your tweeter and associated xover and fitting in a Closed Back Midrange and associated xover. Does this seem like a possible scenario for you? Emminence makes a 6" CBMR and I'm sure one of their stock x-overs could be acceptable, probably the 800hz 2way.

this is not an answer from a speaker designer, but a suggestion to follow up on from someone who reads a lot on here....
 
1) Having done some more reading, it appears that in bass guitar speakers, the RMS-wattage rating is generally a piece of thermal protection info, which leaves your over-excursion problem as a valid concern. So maybe I could put a high pass on the B102, at about 45 or 50 hertz, to protect it from over-excursion?

Wattage rating is about thermal protection of the voice coil. But it is not about overexcursion of it. One is a thermal limit and one is a physical limit.

In this case wattage means nothing. Check into the xmax and xlim of the T/S specs. Xmax tells you how far the speaker can be pushed without exceeding the limits of the voice coil.

45 or 50Hz? That would leave nothing for the BP102 as you wouldn't touch 45Hz much in that small of a cab. The BP102 will handle everything below 500Hz. Anything above that would go to the midrange driver (which IMO anything larger than a 6" is a waste).

If you subdivide the cab for two different 10's, the BP102 will be in too small a compartment to be useful in the lows.

2) Wouldn't the path of least resistance be the port?
Yes. But only at the tuning frequency. Watch a speaker in a ported cab. It will move in and out except at the tuning frequency, where the port takes over. Above and below that tuning frequency, the speaker moves more (and decidedly more below that).
 
Just a personal experience on mixing drivers. I recently bought a used EarCandy BassBomb 2x12 (I know, just get past the name). It has 1 Eminence Delta-12LFA and 1 Eminence Kappa-12A in a ported cabinet, no tweeter. I liked it when I tried it and the more I've worked with my amp eq ('72 Bassman 100) the more I like it. Lots of volume and a great tone. The caveat of course is that I'm looking for a more vintage mid-rangey tone. Its got plenty of bass for me but its not meant to be an earth shaker.

The 2 points that I think are pertinent is that 1. if the price is right, it works and sounds good to you, it is good for you, regardless of what technical analysis might say; on the other hand 2) BFM and the other guys who know what they are talking about are correct. The specs help you predict performance and get you close to what you want. If you have plenty of time and money to do trial and error, go for it, but if you listen to what they say, you can increase the percentage that you'll get a satisfactory result without as much effort and cost.
 
"How about yanking your tweeter and associated xover and fitting in a Closed Back Midrange and associated xover. Does this seem like a possible scenario for you? Emminence makes a 6" CBMR and I'm sure one of their stock x-overs could be acceptable, probably the 800hz 2way."

This sounds like it might work! Looks like a good idea to me. Keep all the big bottom, and add mids! Thank you! ... Tom

"Yes. But only at the tuning frequency. Watch a speaker in a ported cab. It will move in and out except at the tuning frequency, where the port takes over. Above and below that tuning frequency, the speaker moves more (and decidedly more below that)."

Sounds like you're implying that the size of the box and the size/shape/length of the port are primarily designed, or 'tuned' to emphasize a particular frequency band. Presumbaly one in which a particular driver is kind of weak. Would that be a fairly accurate way for me to conceptualize the purpose of box and port tuning?

Prodigal_Son ... I think I agree with your entire post! Thank you! ... Tom