Double Bass "Professional" versus "Student" -level basses

[Heifetzbass]

In my experience, the "Student vs Professional" level instrument only applies to classical players in terminology. I have seen plenty of bluegrass players making a living playing what resides in our orchestra classroom at school. I know many jazz players that play on a Juzek, or something like that that make a living. In the symphony world, those basses would not win a professional audition in a core orchestra making a living wage.

I would disregard the discussion of basses for different forms of music for now, let's discuss the classical world. Most shops where you will be buying an instrument will be dedicated to classical players and use this terminology in reference to that field.

Entry Level- Think rental pool. German or Chinese factory instruments that you would hand a rank beginner and not think twice. This would be a $400-$500 violin, or a $1,000-$2,000 bass. They should be well set-up and have a moderately good tone. The instrument should not be a hindrance to a beginning player. Normally a plywood bass.

"Step-Up"- This is an upgraded instrument that is usually factory made. Shen, Christopher, Moretti, Sofia, etc... they would be in the $1500-$2000 range for a violin, or $2500-$5000 range for a bass. These are usually fully carved, made with the assistance of machines (think CNC), and are consistent performers. Reliable instruments that should get most players through their undergrad degree programs. Good tone, but not a superior tone. A solid workhorse that most people can afford.
Hybrid or carved bass.

Professional- These are hand-made instruments that don't have a "brand name". They are made by an individual maker, or co-op of makers that design and build on commission. They may be brand new, or hundreds of years old. A professional Violin will start in the neighborhood of $10,000 and a professional bass will start in the same range. The price will be determined by the market based on how good the maker is, their sound, and how well they are made. Tone will be good enough to win a professional job. Regional Orchestras will play on these instruments mainly. The average value of the Greenville (SC) bass section is $18,000.

Pedigreed- These are the instruments that players in major symphonies own. Sometimes the symphonies or private collectors own them and loan them to the players. The value of the instrument is not just based on the sound, but the historical importance of the maker. These instruments have brothers and sisters in museums. There may be very few in existence. They will start in the $50,000 range for basses and go up to the seven figure range for violins.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Brian, I'd be curious to know about the instruments played in the Greenville bass section. Also, I'm not sure how instruments such as 19th/20th century French shop, and Hawkes basses, for instance, fit into the picture here.

 

[drurb]

Brian-- It's interesting that, considering only the classical world as you did, then the definition of "student" vs. "professional" actually does refer to on which basses one can make a living. As has been pointed out in this thread and as you reiterated, looking beyond the classical world, the nomenclature doesn't coincide well with which basses can be used to make a professional living.

Casting everything in terms of the classical world sure does simplify the picture. It makes sense that the better makers would have the classical world in mind when using those terms. Surely, there are many makers (especially those who don't cater to classical players) whose use of the terms wouldn't adhere to your thoughtful and helpful scheme. For example, such makers might characterize a particular bass as being "professional grade" when it would be quite far from that for classical use. It would be useful for a player, then, to figure out where such a bass fits in your scheme. Thanks for laying it out as you did.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Yeah, I think the "professional" categories is silly. What matters is what one does with the instrument.

To the OP: A quality instrument will basically have more detailed history and/or construction. It will be put together better and if it's been around for 200 years it's going to develop (hopefully) a unique voice. Yes, what your'e paying for is the wood, the labor, it's pedigree but the real bottom line is the sound. Generally, you get what you pay for. Bad basses will fight back and actually make it harder to play. Good basses will actually be easier to play and intonate. Exceptional basses will not only play easy, but thunder like a cannon or sing like a nightengale. Looks and construction is great, but it all means squat if the tone isn't there.

It also takes a player with the neccessary skills to be able to fully make the bass sing. It's not like a car, where just about anybody can go fast in it. I've played $35K basses that sounded like crap in my hands because I dont' have the chops.

It's known that some high quality hybrids or even plywood basses will sound better than a carved one. It all depends. Generally carved basses have better tone but there's always exceptions. My old bass was a student hybrid - built like a tank. Only when I purchased a better bass did I realize how choked up and squelched the tone was.

 

[Heifetzbass]

Brian, I'd be curious to know about the instruments played in the Greenville bass section. Also, I'm not sure how instruments such as 19th/20th century French shop, and Hawkes basses, for instance, fit into the picture here.

Well, since it's per service it varies from concert to concert slightly. Most concerts would go like this: Front Stand two Kolstein Master Art Maggini and Carcassi, Tom Martin, Solano, Old Frenchy, Jackstadt, Prescott, and Tarantino.

Hawkes fits into the professional category. Please remember, these aren't MY categories. This is the vocabulary of the trade.

BG

 

[Heifetzbass]

Yeah, I think the "professional" categories is silly. What matters is what one does with the instrument.

I agree. I just know the violin shop lingo and I am trying to spell it out for the newbies that will be shopping in a place that doesn't cater to grassers or jazzers. Most violin shop owners are squares that come from the classical world.

Having said that, If I take a Shen Willow SB-200 to a symphony audition for a core orchestra (read makes 40K a year to play) I will be at a distinct disadvantage. If everyone else shows up with a Jackstadt, or Tom Martin, or Schnitzer I won't have much of a chance because everybody at that audition can play! It will be a matter of preference to the committee based on rhythm, intonation, style, musicality, and sound. Sorry, but unless it is the best Shen Willow ever made, the better basses will have an advantage. That's why the need for the better basses exists.

BG

 

[longfinger]

In my experience, the "Student vs Professional" level instrument only applies to classical players in terminology.

Pretty much. A fully carved round back or all solid wood flatback that a jazz player earns his money from, (priced say $8K-$10K) is a professional instrument, but might only be termed a "student" instrument in the classical world.

However, these terms are economic in nature and have meaning outside the narrow field of classical instrument selling.

For example, economically, the person getting paid to perform 3 chord blues, and folk material on a laminate DB is a professional, however the person trying to complete a Post-Grad degree in DB performance and still shedding orchestral repertoire in a University practice room on a $30K instrument is still a student and an "amateur". That person has not earned any money yet performing music.

We could limit the scope of our discussion to make the words "student" and "professional" still relevant, or we can actually find new words that are relevant to a broader range of discussion in the 21st century.

For example: type of woods, type of construction, design quality, built quality, etc. It's not easy, people use language in many ways, but it is a more useful path IMHO for the future 50 years.

 

[drurb]

Pretty much. A fully carved round back or all solid wood flatback that a jazz player earns his money from, (priced say $8K-$10K) is a professional instrument, but might only be termed a "student" instrument in the classical world.

However, these terms are economic in nature and have meaning outside the narrow field of classical instrument selling.

Yes, strictly speaking, the terms are economic in nature. Whether they're used that way consistently is another matter. Brian defined them within the scheme of classical playing. While his scheme seems to hold fine within that world, I agree, as I mentioned, that it seems that not all makers, sellers, players, etc. define the terms that way. They often seem to be used as marketing terms that may have little to do with the actual economics within the classical, jazz, bluegrass, roots, folk, etc. genres. The very same instrument in the hands of different players would often not be categorized consistently.

...or we can actually find new words that are relevant to a broader range of discussion in the 21st century.

For example: type of woods, type of construction, design quality, built quality, etc. It's not easy, people use language in many ways, but it is a more useful path IMHO for the future 50 years.

Yes! Descriptions of the instruments themselves are far more useful, IMO. The terms "student-level" and "professional-level" are squishy. The OP, however, asked what they mean.

So, after all of this, given the OP's question:

...when makers designate an instrument as "Student" rather than "Professional" grade, what factors are taken into account?

I'd say that the factors taken into account by makers are likely to be quite consistent but that the judgments based on them are likely not.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I'll never forget Eugene Levinson making beautiful music on a Krutz plywood bass at the ISB. After several minutes, I told him how beautiful he sounded and he just looked at me and said, "it's a bass". Pointing to his head and heart, the message was clear.

Sure, it's very important for musicians on any instrument to seek the instrument which motivates them to improve and facilitates the creation of the music which is inside them. If a particular instrument is sufficient, it is.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Another distinction can be made in that most of the so called classical basses people need to audition and perform in pro orchestras are larger 7/8-4/4 instruments. They have to put out a lot of acoustic sound. They may or may not be ideal jazz/other genre instruments.

So, most of the average size 3/4 basses from the present and past are probably not going to cut it in this application anyway.

 

[404usernamenotfound]

Another distinction can be made in that most of the so called classical basses people need to audition and perform in pro orchestras are larger 7/8-4/4 instruments. They have to put out a lot of acoustic sound. They may or may not be ideal jazz/other genre instruments.



So, most of the average size 3/4 basses from the present and past are probably not going to cut it in this application anyway.

That's not necessarily true. A lot of orchestra players have smaller basses. Sound production and size aren't mutually exclusive. That's not to say that a lot of players don't have great basses that happen to be big (Prescott-school instruments, older English basses, some unaltered older Italian instruments), but I wouldn't consider it a rule.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

This is starting to remind me of the blindfold test they conducted with a bunch of violinists that had to play a recent vintage violin vs. a master violin (strads and what not). IIRC, the verdict was that it was all over the place and nobody could tell which ones were new and which were old.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

That's not necessarily true. A lot of orchestra players have smaller basses. Sound production and size aren't mutually exclusive. That's not to say that a lot of players don't have great basses that happen to be big (Prescott-school instruments, older English basses, some unaltered older Italian instruments), but I wouldn't consider it a rule.

Notice I did say "most". No it's not a rule. Of course there are exceptions. Going through Ken Smith's inventory of basses that he mainly markets to classical players, most of the basses are over 44" in the back which AFAIK puts them in the 7/8 category, at least. I don't think the old great instruments just "happen to be big". They were designed that way for a reason, namely orchestra playing!

So, a survey of the instruments used in the top orchestras would be interesting…

 

[jmpiwonka]

imo getting paid for some gigs doesn't make you a professional bassist. if you must consider that pro, then it's not at the same level as a professional orchestra bassist.
just putting that out there...

 

[404usernamenotfound]

Notice I did say "most". No it's not a rule. Of course there are exceptions. Going through Ken Smith's inventory of basses that he mainly markets to classical players, most of the basses are over 44" in the back which AFAIK puts them in the 7/8 category, at least. I don't think the old great instruments just "happen to be big". They were designed that way for a reason, namely orchestra playing!

So, a survey of the instruments used in the top orchestras would be interesting…

Perhaps I was a bit overreaching with my comment- many orchestra basses are much larger. I was just trying to point out that there isn't necessarily a correlation between size and sound production. I've seen small-ish basses that project much better than some enormous ones. I don't know who Ken Smith is, but you do have a point in that older instruments didn't lend themselves to solo playing, hence being bigger, with uncut shoulders and such.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I was just trying to point out that there isn't necessarily a correlation between size and sound production.

I don't know who Ken Smith is...

I'm sure you are right about that.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/

http://www.smithbassforums.com

 

[drurb]

...I was just trying to point out that there isn't necessarily a correlation between size and sound production.

Ah, but there almost certainly is. It's really a matter of physics. All other things being equal, for the frequencies in which we are most interested, greater cavity volume will yield greater acoustic output (but not necessarily the same tonal characteristics). Of course, most of the time, all other things are not equal at all. So, you end up with smaller basses that out-power some larger ones. There are so many other variables (e.g., design, tone-woods, the maker, etc.). Still, if one were to plot distributions of sound-pressure level for various size basses, I suspect there'd be a fair amount of overlap (given the expected variance) with the means shifted upward with cavity volume. So, I think Eric was right on target, as usual.

Of course, it's not all about sheer acoustic power, even among orchestra basses but my understanding has been that acoustic power is weighted more heavily in that realm than it is, say, among professional jazz players.

 

[bssist]

imo getting paid for some gigs doesn't make you a professional bassist. if you must consider that pro, then it's not at the same level as a professional orchestra bassist.
just putting that out there...

Not to perpetuate a derailuer, but there is some truth to that statement. I recently left a working group because they were not professional. Professional encompasses much more than $$ or equipment.

There are many hobbiests being paid $$ to perform on "professional" level instruments and many professional players making great music on "student" level instruments.

I'll never forget Eugene Levinson making beautiful music on a Krutz plywood bass at the ISB. After several minutes, I told him how beautiful he sounded and he just looked at me and said, "it's a bass". Pointing to his head and heart, the message was clear. .

EXACTLY!!

 

[drurb]

...Professional encompasses much more than $$ or equipment.

Indeed! I figured we could find that in the definition. Just look at this from Invalid Link Removed, for example [bold added]:

pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

 

[jolok]

"Someone playing "country" bass, using weedwhacker strings on a bass that cost them $500 is just as much using it for a professional purpose as a member of a major orchestra using a $600,000 Da Salo. Good point."

Yes, except whoever paid $600,000 for a musical instrument got taken for a HUGE ride. I'm sorry, I know I'm not an authority by any stretch of the imagination, but that, folks, is absurd at best