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Purchased Sonuus B2M Bass Midi Interface
- Thread starter WarriorJoe7
- Start date
I bought one and it's terrible. I'm returning it. Tracking is terrible. I really wanted it to work too.
This is so disappointing reading all this as I had high hopes of at last getting real sounds via a DSI MoPho rather than the synth pedals we all know and use - Markbass, EHX BMS, Deep Impact, G5 etc.
Looking at the Sonuus forum there are others having trouble: http://www.sonuus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=285
Been using a Boss Octaver for nearly 30 years so have mastered adapting my playing for best tracking performance so my last hope is that the Sonuus will actually work with my "technique".
If not, I might start learning keyboards!
Looking at the Sonuus forum there are others having trouble: http://www.sonuus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=285
Been using a Boss Octaver for nearly 30 years so have mastered adapting my playing for best tracking performance so my last hope is that the Sonuus will actually work with my "technique".
If not, I might start learning keyboards!
i have a Roland GK-3B hex pickup and the GR-20 synth, and have no issues with this setup, and it's polyphonic.
I think pitch-to-midi software would be better than the Sonuus if you are using softsynths.
I think pitch-to-midi software would be better than the Sonuus if you are using softsynths.
- Jul 29, 2008
- 27
- 7
- Disclosures
- Admin of the Chicago Bass Players' Network
McCartneyMan was kind enough to give me a good deal on his Sonuus B2M which I've been messing with for two weeks now. Here's the scoop:
I'm using it to trigger an Alesis Micron. My bass is an 18V active Steinberger Synapse. The B2M drove me nuts at first with false triggers and wrong octaves until I had the idea to 'condition' the input signal through a Zoom B2 multi effects pedal I had lying around. Basically I worked out some settings on the Zoom's compressor and parametric equalizer that gives an input signal to the B2M that it seems to agree with. One way or another you will need to play with a pick, play super clean, and mute the strings. I'm now able to play anywhere on the fretboard at medium speed with low latency and without false triggers. It's finally beginning to sound awesome.
Lastly, for those of you who know how a synth really works and can program the Micron properly, the real power of the B2M begins to get realized when triggering sequenced patterns from the Micron's setups feature. WOW!
If anyone has any questions - PM me.
-CW
I'm using it to trigger an Alesis Micron. My bass is an 18V active Steinberger Synapse. The B2M drove me nuts at first with false triggers and wrong octaves until I had the idea to 'condition' the input signal through a Zoom B2 multi effects pedal I had lying around. Basically I worked out some settings on the Zoom's compressor and parametric equalizer that gives an input signal to the B2M that it seems to agree with. One way or another you will need to play with a pick, play super clean, and mute the strings. I'm now able to play anywhere on the fretboard at medium speed with low latency and without false triggers. It's finally beginning to sound awesome.
Lastly, for those of you who know how a synth really works and can program the Micron properly, the real power of the B2M begins to get realized when triggering sequenced patterns from the Micron's setups feature. WOW!
If anyone has any questions - PM me.
-CW
"sequenced patterns from the Micron's setups features"
Is this in a program when you hook it up to computer?
Can you share your settings?
Time to whip out the old mute setup
Is this in a program when you hook it up to computer?
Can you share your settings?
Time to whip out the old mute setup
- Jul 29, 2008
- 27
- 7
- Disclosures
- Admin of the Chicago Bass Players' Network
I connect the MIDI OUT on the B2M directly to the MIDI IN on the Micron. No computer is involved. The setups feature on the Micron is one of it's internal functions that allows you to combine programs (sounds), rhythms and patterns (sequences) in a manner that you can trigger them from different parts of the keyboard. The B2M then gives you the ability to trigger these separate parts from a bass. If you have a sustain pedal connected you can then program a setup so that one (or more) of the patterns triggers from a particular note (or set of notes) on the bass. Then you can trigger a pattern and go back to playing a normal bass line, trigger another pattern, etc. For its size and low cost, the Micron is a powerful little SOB.
-CW
-CW
Was this ever answered ?
What I'm asking is: Since the B2M is not getting a lot of love here, what IS the best hardware solution for pitch to midi (for a bass).
Andy
I think the best hardware solution would be something like the Peavey MidiBass, a purpose built hardware using fret switching to eleminate tracking delays.
But if you are looking for a complimentry add-on for an existing bass, something with a hexaphonic pickup such as the Roland GK-3B, or piezo style hexaphonic pickups like Graphtech, paired with a pitch to midi device such as the Roland GI-20 or AXON AX-50.
That will give you pitch to midi, the downside is the tracking/latency delay, especially below [A], that's just physics, the converter requires 2 cycles to detect a note, so the lower the note, the slower the conversion.
A work around for that is to either play an octave higher, or replace the strings with picollo type.
If you want built in sounds, the Roland GR-20 or AXON AX-100 will do the job.
Or external sound modules/midi keyboard or computer ill also do. But the only downside to external sound modules is the Roland GR-20 uses an extra midi controller for envelope following, giving variable volume envelope for a sustained note, this data can be used externally too, with a bit of extra midi mapping.
There are also software pitch-to-midi converters too, which i have used with limited success, they can be polyphonic (TS audio2midi), but i had issues with octave jumping and false triggering, just like the Sonus B2M appears to do too.
There is also the Roland VB-99, which can do pitch to midi the same as a Gi-20 or GR-20, with the same tracking delay, but this also uses a different non-midi COSM scheme to achieve near zero latency delay.
Thanks for all the info. Not sure I see an answer in there for me, though. I can see why everyone was so hopeful for good results from the B2M.
Wooo ! Some price tag
The word "Best" is very often attached to the word "Expensive" sadly.
The word "Best" is very often attached to the word "Expensive" sadly.
This is the next version of the peavey midibass (or cyberbass.) Same designer... Steve Chiock. Unfortunately the price is prohibitive for most musicians, and this is the lower cost model. The original was $3999.
I amy have an extra midibase for sale but it needs the external box.
Here is a thread where others voice there concerns (which are VERY similiar to mine
http://www.sonuus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=285
And here is a general response thread from sonuus attempting to address the problems:
http://www.sonuus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=316
Getting better results with G2M/B2M
Sonuus pitch-to-MIDI products, including the G2M and B2M, convert the pitch information in an analogue signal into digital MIDI messages. Sometimes you might find the results are not what you expect: the MIDI does not correspond to what you thought you played!
If you are having problems, the following tips will try to explain what is going on and help you to understand what may be happening, allowing you to get better results. Remember, the G2M can't perform magic, it can only convert the signal it's given, not the signal you thought you had sent it!
For brevity, these tips may refer to the G2M or B2M, but apply equally to all Sonuus pitch-to-MIDI products.
Fast real-time detection
When you play your instrument, there are often times where very short notes are produced without you noticing. For example, this can happen as you move from one note to another. You don't notice it because your brain has learned to ignore these things, but these short notes are clearly visible if you record the audio and examine its waveform.
When the G2M sees these short signals, because it is working to minimise latency as much as possible, it has to convert these short notes into MIDI data because it doesn't know at that point in time if the note is going to be short or going to be long. The only way to know for sure would be to wait for longer and add extra latency. These short-duration notes are often referred to as "glitches".
Harmonics and glitches
Glitches (short, high notes) are often caused by real pitches on strings when open-string harmonics are excited, for example when unfretting notes positioned close to a harmonic node. As an example, when a 7th fret note is played then stopped, the act of releasing the 7th fret position while the string is still vibrating can result in the string starting to oscillate at the 7th fret harmonic. This is the same note as the 19th fret position, so you can end up with the note appearing to jump an octave (7th fret to 19th fret). Some instruments are more prone to this than others.
Short-duration harmonics caused in this way will often be ignored by your ear: the first note masks it as long as the new note is not too long. However, because our the pitch detection is so fast, even a very short note will be converted to a MIDI note (because without being able to look into the future, we can't tell how long the note is going to be!). Short notes like this appear to be glitches because you don't notice them when playing normally. But, if you record the audio going into the G2M you will be able to see this sort of thing happening.
Although the G2M is robust against spurious notes, if they are too large or too long they will be detected because they look just like any other intentional note. Here are some tips to help reduce these problems:
(1) Play carefully to avoid these notes: ensure the string has stopped vibrating before unfretting the note. Damping of strings can help with this.
(2) Use the neck pickup rather than the bridge pickup as this is less sensitive to these harmonics.
(3) Turning down the tone control can help, simpy because it reduces the level of these higher notes.
(4) Lighter gauge strings can help because these are easier to damp to avoid unintentional notes being played.
Multiple notes
The G2M is monophonic so it can only process a single note at a time. However, it is robust enough that multiple notes can often be tolerated without adverse effects. But multiple notes become a problem when they are either too loud, so that they start fighting each other, or their pitches are so close that it's not possible to isolate them. This is more of a problem for lower notes because these are more closely spaced in frequency compared to high notes. Therefore, this is often more of a problem for bass players, than guitarists.
Multiple notes can arise in two ways:
(1) When more than one string is played at a time -- non-playing strings are layed by mistake, or are not stopped fully when moving between notes.
(2) Sympathetic vibration where an undamped string resonates with the note being played. When you stop the original note, the sympathetic vibration continues and this can cause problems when you play the next note.
In both cases, careful damping of non-playing strings will reduce these effects to acceptable levels.
Avoid non-pitched sounds
Sounds with no well defined pitch, such as fret buzz, finger noise, string slaps, etc., can often cause problems if they are too obvious. Non-pitched sounds such as these can often appears as short high-frequency notes: glitches.
So ensure your guitar is setup correctly with no fret buzz and always play in such a way to get a correctly pitched note. For example, a bass players often "slap" the strings to evoke a more rhythmic sound and this results in a non-pitched sound before the true note is heard. Because the pitch detection is very fast often the slap has to be interpreted long before the true note begins and this will result in what appears to be wrong notes.
General Tips
(1) Ensure the input signal isn't clipping too much. Some clipping won't affect performance, but if the signal is very clipped, it can compromise detection accuracy. So, if the CLIP LED is on all the time, turn down the instrument's volume.
(2) When switching between instruments, it is a good idea to disconnect and reconnect the cable at the G2M. Doing so will allow the G2M to recalibrate for the new instrument. This is particularly important when switching from a high-output instrument (e.g., a guitar with active pickups) to a low-output instrument (e.g., a guitar with vintage single-coil pickups).
(3) Ensure your guitar is correctly tuned for best note accuracy. Also ensure that intonation is good. Using new strings also helps to improve intonation.
(4) When playing a synthesizer/instrument patch, try to think and play like the sound you are using. For example, when playing a saxophone or cello try to make it sound like the real instrument, not like a guitar. The feedback you get while doing this allows you to adapt your playing style on the fly and allow you to get the best results.
http://www.sonuus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=316
Getting better results with G2M/B2M
Sonuus pitch-to-MIDI products, including the G2M and B2M, convert the pitch information in an analogue signal into digital MIDI messages. Sometimes you might find the results are not what you expect: the MIDI does not correspond to what you thought you played!
If you are having problems, the following tips will try to explain what is going on and help you to understand what may be happening, allowing you to get better results. Remember, the G2M can't perform magic, it can only convert the signal it's given, not the signal you thought you had sent it!
For brevity, these tips may refer to the G2M or B2M, but apply equally to all Sonuus pitch-to-MIDI products.
Fast real-time detection
When you play your instrument, there are often times where very short notes are produced without you noticing. For example, this can happen as you move from one note to another. You don't notice it because your brain has learned to ignore these things, but these short notes are clearly visible if you record the audio and examine its waveform.
When the G2M sees these short signals, because it is working to minimise latency as much as possible, it has to convert these short notes into MIDI data because it doesn't know at that point in time if the note is going to be short or going to be long. The only way to know for sure would be to wait for longer and add extra latency. These short-duration notes are often referred to as "glitches".
Harmonics and glitches
Glitches (short, high notes) are often caused by real pitches on strings when open-string harmonics are excited, for example when unfretting notes positioned close to a harmonic node. As an example, when a 7th fret note is played then stopped, the act of releasing the 7th fret position while the string is still vibrating can result in the string starting to oscillate at the 7th fret harmonic. This is the same note as the 19th fret position, so you can end up with the note appearing to jump an octave (7th fret to 19th fret). Some instruments are more prone to this than others.
Short-duration harmonics caused in this way will often be ignored by your ear: the first note masks it as long as the new note is not too long. However, because our the pitch detection is so fast, even a very short note will be converted to a MIDI note (because without being able to look into the future, we can't tell how long the note is going to be!). Short notes like this appear to be glitches because you don't notice them when playing normally. But, if you record the audio going into the G2M you will be able to see this sort of thing happening.
Although the G2M is robust against spurious notes, if they are too large or too long they will be detected because they look just like any other intentional note. Here are some tips to help reduce these problems:
(1) Play carefully to avoid these notes: ensure the string has stopped vibrating before unfretting the note. Damping of strings can help with this.
(2) Use the neck pickup rather than the bridge pickup as this is less sensitive to these harmonics.
(3) Turning down the tone control can help, simpy because it reduces the level of these higher notes.
(4) Lighter gauge strings can help because these are easier to damp to avoid unintentional notes being played.
Multiple notes
The G2M is monophonic so it can only process a single note at a time. However, it is robust enough that multiple notes can often be tolerated without adverse effects. But multiple notes become a problem when they are either too loud, so that they start fighting each other, or their pitches are so close that it's not possible to isolate them. This is more of a problem for lower notes because these are more closely spaced in frequency compared to high notes. Therefore, this is often more of a problem for bass players, than guitarists.
Multiple notes can arise in two ways:
(1) When more than one string is played at a time -- non-playing strings are layed by mistake, or are not stopped fully when moving between notes.
(2) Sympathetic vibration where an undamped string resonates with the note being played. When you stop the original note, the sympathetic vibration continues and this can cause problems when you play the next note.
In both cases, careful damping of non-playing strings will reduce these effects to acceptable levels.
Avoid non-pitched sounds
Sounds with no well defined pitch, such as fret buzz, finger noise, string slaps, etc., can often cause problems if they are too obvious. Non-pitched sounds such as these can often appears as short high-frequency notes: glitches.
So ensure your guitar is setup correctly with no fret buzz and always play in such a way to get a correctly pitched note. For example, a bass players often "slap" the strings to evoke a more rhythmic sound and this results in a non-pitched sound before the true note is heard. Because the pitch detection is very fast often the slap has to be interpreted long before the true note begins and this will result in what appears to be wrong notes.
General Tips
(1) Ensure the input signal isn't clipping too much. Some clipping won't affect performance, but if the signal is very clipped, it can compromise detection accuracy. So, if the CLIP LED is on all the time, turn down the instrument's volume.
(2) When switching between instruments, it is a good idea to disconnect and reconnect the cable at the G2M. Doing so will allow the G2M to recalibrate for the new instrument. This is particularly important when switching from a high-output instrument (e.g., a guitar with active pickups) to a low-output instrument (e.g., a guitar with vintage single-coil pickups).
(3) Ensure your guitar is correctly tuned for best note accuracy. Also ensure that intonation is good. Using new strings also helps to improve intonation.
(4) When playing a synthesizer/instrument patch, try to think and play like the sound you are using. For example, when playing a saxophone or cello try to make it sound like the real instrument, not like a guitar. The feedback you get while doing this allows you to adapt your playing style on the fly and allow you to get the best results.
Stick_Player
Inactive
- Nov 13, 2009
- 4,149
- 937
- Disclosures
- Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
I did a similar thing. My set up requires that I connect the Sonuus B2M to the line out of my Rane 42S (I have four bass instrument plugged into this). In between the Rane and B2M I have an Electro-Harmonix Nano Signal Pad. I had it modified with a low pass filter. I have found that the B2M works better when the input signal is not too 'hot' and without the high frequencies - mostly the fundamental. I do not want to 'turn down' or eq my bass just to play through the B2M. So this method solves all that.
It's also critical to have the synth set up 'correctly'.
You will also NOT be able to play fast, either. Delay is a built-in problem with Pitch-to-MIDI. For faster basslines I play a controller into my Moog Taurus III.
I can selectively use a fretted bass, fretless bass, EUB or Stick Bass to access the B2M to play the Moog.
The possibilities are many as I have the Taurus synched to a Roland RC-50.
I was able to try the Sonuus box at my local dealer and it was horrendous. No matter what we did it wouldn't track right and what was coming out of the amp sounded nothing resembling what I was playing on the instrument. My guess is that it is really optimized for guitar. I'm glad I tried it before I wasted my money. I would have been really annoyed.
I feel a need to chime in here, as I clearly feel we are giving Sonuus a bad reputation because of what it isn't... not what it is!
we compare this stomp box approach at $100 with full blown packages that cost 40 times more. it is like comparing a ferarri to a lada and giving the lada heck for not being as good.
I use a roland GK20 with a hex pickup, and yes it is better. however, it does also require some adaptations to the playing technique. the sonuus door require a little more adaptations. this was no surprise to me at all. I will explain why. although sonuus did already do it above.
I suggest you record your playing and listen to it very carefully. slow it down and turn it up. you hear a lot of audio debris in your sound? I bet you do. clanks, string noise, taps, accidental micro notes. they are all there. you need to remove those to help the sonuus. you might have to clean up your device by doing some pre processing of the signal. on the hex pickups they already did it by making sure the pickup picks up what they want it to. the sonuus use the magnetic signal itself, and relies on you to help it.
comparing it to a MIDIbase is unfair as the MIDIbase has electronic sensors in the frets that help trigger thepitch of the note. it uses the pickup more for sustain and attack. thus it is not a pitch to MIDI system as the roland and sonuus are. it is a totally different approach, the frets become keys. of course its better.but is still an unfair comparison.
I, for one, thinks the sonuus is a remarkable achievement. ittracks faster than the roland in the lower frequencies. they also chose to trigger it one octave lower so you can play up the neck and get a bass line faster, almost making it an octaver.
you need to understand physics and MIDI to appreciate this device. when you do, you will be positively surprised. I, for one, never thought a product like this would ever be available, and definitely not at this price.
my conclusion is this. if you are prepared to work with your technique and your pre-processing and spend time with it, you can become very creative with this little device. if you want to get a quick and effortless transition to synthesizer sounds and can't be bothered with this, get a MIDIbase or an industrial radio bass. if you can't afford either... get a keyboard.
the sonuus is not a disappointment, quite on the contrary. the disappointment should be in the laws of physics that handed us an instrument that not lend itself easily to pitch detection.
if you want to add synth sounds to your bass and don't like the idea of going through MIDI, you can also try to get an akai deep impact or a similar device that uses your bass sound and process that. they are also expensive. but uses other physical laws than pitch detection.
for $100 the sonuus is quite remarkable. whether you are able to make it work for you is another question.
personally I like the idea of putting it in line with an eq pedal to pre process the signal before feeding it to the converter. muting improves the tracking immensely too.
good luck all!
we compare this stomp box approach at $100 with full blown packages that cost 40 times more. it is like comparing a ferarri to a lada and giving the lada heck for not being as good.
I use a roland GK20 with a hex pickup, and yes it is better. however, it does also require some adaptations to the playing technique. the sonuus door require a little more adaptations. this was no surprise to me at all. I will explain why. although sonuus did already do it above.
I suggest you record your playing and listen to it very carefully. slow it down and turn it up. you hear a lot of audio debris in your sound? I bet you do. clanks, string noise, taps, accidental micro notes. they are all there. you need to remove those to help the sonuus. you might have to clean up your device by doing some pre processing of the signal. on the hex pickups they already did it by making sure the pickup picks up what they want it to. the sonuus use the magnetic signal itself, and relies on you to help it.
comparing it to a MIDIbase is unfair as the MIDIbase has electronic sensors in the frets that help trigger thepitch of the note. it uses the pickup more for sustain and attack. thus it is not a pitch to MIDI system as the roland and sonuus are. it is a totally different approach, the frets become keys. of course its better.but is still an unfair comparison.
I, for one, thinks the sonuus is a remarkable achievement. ittracks faster than the roland in the lower frequencies. they also chose to trigger it one octave lower so you can play up the neck and get a bass line faster, almost making it an octaver.
you need to understand physics and MIDI to appreciate this device. when you do, you will be positively surprised. I, for one, never thought a product like this would ever be available, and definitely not at this price.
my conclusion is this. if you are prepared to work with your technique and your pre-processing and spend time with it, you can become very creative with this little device. if you want to get a quick and effortless transition to synthesizer sounds and can't be bothered with this, get a MIDIbase or an industrial radio bass. if you can't afford either... get a keyboard.
the sonuus is not a disappointment, quite on the contrary. the disappointment should be in the laws of physics that handed us an instrument that not lend itself easily to pitch detection.
if you want to add synth sounds to your bass and don't like the idea of going through MIDI, you can also try to get an akai deep impact or a similar device that uses your bass sound and process that. they are also expensive. but uses other physical laws than pitch detection.
for $100 the sonuus is quite remarkable. whether you are able to make it work for you is another question.
personally I like the idea of putting it in line with an eq pedal to pre process the signal before feeding it to the converter. muting improves the tracking immensely too.
good luck all!
