Pushing a head too hard?

[BernardBass]

In an earlier post you said you are having to fight the sub frequency to hear yourself.


At 20 feet away, I'd think you're going to have to put some bass in your monitor. Not sub bass, say 250ish and up? A bit of mid and high mid should clear things up a bit for you,

Yeah sorry I thought I had said it was due to the stage + foh speakers (the subs were massive and under the stage + the stage is quite boomy)...

Your cab will give out before the head will. I just don't get how folks can play so insanely loud!!

It's an acdc tribute .. pure balls to the wall rock lol that only on a handful of occasions has gotten this loud on stage... But thanks man I wasn't worried about the cab... Should I be? I've had a few members say the opposite so I'm a wee bit confused but yeah I'd rather never have to push things that loud.

 

[BernardBass]

There is nothing in the term sound reinforcement that suggests the requirement is two ego driven fools should destroy the hearing of everyone they play in front of.
Maybe it is time to walk away and find a band that doesn't need the crutch of excess volume to make up for other deficiencies.

It's not all the time we play this loud, very rare but I can't leave the band we've all known each other 30 years and grown up together and I love it man. Not making up for anything I think at times the lads just lack common sense

 

[Redbrangus]

How would I hook them up? Could I go ampless? Lol that would be cool to try

Ah... hooking IEMs up. There's the rub. As a sound reinforcement professional, I always blanche a little when I see fellow TB-ers cavalierly recommend IEMs as THE solution to all sorts of issues, including whether or not a beginning bass player should even buy an amp. IEMs ARE the solution to all sorts of monitoring problems, including ones like yours, but using them injects complications that not everyone wants, or is even equipped to deal with.

A comprehensive discussion of IEMs is beyond the scope of this thread, but basically, you have to have your own separate monitor 'mix' to send to the IEMs. Ideally, this would come from the console providing the monitor sends, whether that's an on-stage monitor console or the FOH board. Modern digital desks at all levels have gobs of output busses, so this is a lot more likely to be a viable option than it was in the old analog days, when a request for "an extra mix from the monitor console" was likely to be met with a gruff, curt, or sarcastic response. Still, if you're working down in the trenches, where monitor situations are highly variable, you need to come equipped to provide your own little monitor system if necessary. It could be as basic as little 4-channel mixer that allows you to mix your bass signal with a line-level send from some other source, like an existing monitor mix. If you are likely to encounter situations where there is no monitor system at all, worst case, you can throw up a mic or two of your own to plug into your mixer. Also, a couple of XLR 'wye' cables would allow you to 'split' the mic signal from a couple of select sources -- like the kick drum mic -- but as you can see, it quickly starts to add up to a level of hassle not everyone wants to deal with. This is the source of my skepticism of IEMs being THE solution for good audio. And I REALLY don't want to weigh in on the possibility of 'going ampless' in your situation, except to say that means you'll always be dependent on the quality of the house PA system for your sound -- I'd say with fully half of the club PA's I encounter, the low-end performance isn't up to the task.

 

[6thplanet]

I'd be more worried for the cab. That said if the cab fails it could in turn take out the head. Lots of depends on with this scenario.

I think all amplification should be able to monitor everything going on inside it and have a "Thats all you get" light. I mean, what's the point in a volume knob that goes to 11 if you can't utilize it?

On that, I don't think your 2/12's is ever gonna cut it on the gigs you mentioned having issues with. Good luck and thumbs up for your quest of ear protection.

 

[BernardBass]

Ah... hooking IEMs up. There's the rub. As a sound reinforcement professional, I always blanche a little when I see fellow TB-ers cavalierly recommend IEMs as THE solution to all sorts of issues, including whether or not a beginning bass player should even buy an amp. IEMs ARE the solution to all sorts of monitoring problems, including ones like yours, but using them injects complications that not everyone wants, or is even equipped to deal with.

A comprehensive discussion of IEMs is beyond the scope of this thread, but basically, you have to have your own separate monitor 'mix' to send to the IEMs. Ideally, this would come from the console providing the monitor sends, whether that's an on-stage monitor console or the FOH board. Modern digital desks at all levels have gobs of output busses, so this is a lot more likely to be a viable option than it was in the old analog days, when a request for "an extra mix from the monitor console" was likely to be met with a gruff, curt, or sarcastic response. Still, if you're working down in the trenches, where monitor situations are highly variable, you need to come equipped to provide your own little monitor system if necessary. It could be as basic as little 4-channel mixer that allows you to mix your bass signal with a line-level send from some other source, like an existing monitor mix. If you are likely to encounter situations where there is no monitor system at all, worst case, you can throw up a mic or two of your own to plug into your mixer. Also, a couple of XLR 'wye' cables would allow you to 'split' the mic signal from a couple of select sources -- like the kick drum mic -- but as you can see, it quickly starts to add up to a level of hassle not everyone wants to deal with. This is the source of my skepticism of IEMs being THE solution for good audio. And I REALLY don't want to weigh in on the possibility of 'going ampless' in your situation, except to say that means you'll always be dependent on the quality of the house PA system for your sound -- I'd say with fully half of the club PA's I encounter, the low-end performance isn't up to the task.

Thanks for that lol I thought I might have missed a trick with the setup and that's just confirmed I haven't lol it's way too complicated for me man haha but I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me!!

 

[BernardBass]

I'd be more worried for the cab. That said if the cab fails it could in turn take out the head. Lots of depends on with this scenario.

I think all amplification should be able to monitor everything going on inside it and have a "Thats all you get" light. I mean, what's the point in a volume knob that goes to 11 if you can't utilize it?

On that, I don't think your 2/12's is ever gonna cut it on the gigs you mentioned having issues with. Good luck and thumbs up for your quest of ear protection.

Nah man my 2x12 deffo cuts it, but just not for silllyness like I had to put up with I think.

There's no need for me to be that loud at a venue where we have so much .. and I'm now just going to outright cut the bs if stage sound is that loud.

Lesson learnt here is ear protection and not letting the guitarists do stupid poopie lol

 

[buldog5151bass]

I'll never forget when I saw the Stray Cats in college. There was a wall of guitar cabs at the back of the stage. Brian Setzer came out and kicked the nearest cab. It was just a screen with them printed on

He reached behind the screen and pulled out a Fender combo, and then placed a mic in front of it.

No one complained about his tone, or how the band rocked.

 

[Ralf1e]

It's not all the time we play this loud, very rare but I can't leave the band we've all known each other 30 years and grown up together and I love it man. Not making up for anything I think at times the lads just lack common sense

I understand I play in a Gospel band opps sorry choir in church. They also sometimes play too loud. But my Peavey mini mega 1000 and 4x10 and 2x10 cope well at just a quarter setting on both gain and volume. I don't have to turn up my basses much either.
What I play may not be heard at times but is felt. I don't play boom boom boom I play melodic major scales by the way. I love it.

 

[Ralf1e]

I understand I play in a Gospel band opps sorry choir in church. They also sometimes play too loud. But my Peavey mini mega 1000 and 4x10 and 2x10 cope well at just a quarter setting on both gain and volume. I don't have to turn up my basses much either.
What I play may not be heard at times but is felt. I don't play boom boom boom I play melodic major scales by the way. I love it.

I give em what they asked for and more.

 

[Redbrangus]

I give em what they asked for and more.

Do they know you refer to them as being 'sorry'? Seems a little harsh for church gig.

 

[Ralf1e]

Do they know you refer to them as being 'sorry'? Seems a little harsh for church gig.

Opps sorry again I didn't say They were sorry I said I was sorry for referring to them as a band. You are choosing to misquote me.
God bless you in all that you do whether you like it or not.

 

[Redbrangus]

Now I have to say I'm sorry... I was just intending to be jocular -- hence the grinning emoji. I figured it was some sort of typo or error correction and that you weren't really referring to them as sorry.

 

[Ralf1e]

Now I have to say I'm sorry... I was just intending to be jocular -- hence the grinning emoji. I figured it was some sort of typo or error correction and that you weren't really referring to them as sorry.

Thank you. I appreciate your time to reply.

 

[GreyBeard]

2x12's are only go so loud no matter how much power you feed them. I think you need another cabinet for those crazy times you play with your amp 20' away.

 

[bobdabilder]

I second this. 2 4x10s should be fine.
Your audiologist does not approve.

2x12's are only go so loud no matter how much power you feed them. I think you need another cabinet for those crazy times you play with your amp 20' away.

 

[5StringBlues]

Yeah sorry I thought I had said it was due to the stage + foh speakers (the subs were massive and under the stage + the stage is quite boomy)...

This is exactly the situation when you want the "grunge" tone you described earlier and some mid bass in your monitor.


You're on the right track, shaping your tone to every situation.

 

[GreyBeard]

Hi guys,

I'm just curious... I have a 1000watt head and a 1200watt cab both @4ohm and sometimes I find myself pushing the master vol up to 8/10 to cut through a live set with 2x guitarists using 4x12 marshall cabs...

I've asked them countless times to turn down as I'm afraid of pushing my head too hard. I've had a hartke head crap out on me before pushing it up to 8 also... Am I being paranoid or is it a legit concern?

Appreciate any info!

Is the amp clipping?

 

[BernardBass]

2x12's are only go so loud no matter how much power you feed them. I think you need another cabinet for those crazy times you play with your amp 20' away.

Yeah but that's a lot of spondulas for maybe 1,2 times a year... I'd have to rebuild my rig again and my wife would kill me as Ive nowhere to store it (my house is quite small lol)

That's why I moved away from the ampeg to barefaced... It is at least nearly twice as loud to my ears

Is the amp clipping?

Nope I don't have the gain that high... I tend to push my preamp (John East on bass) up full, get the gain on the amp to every so slightly clip when aggressively slapping, roll that back a touch from that + vol a touch on my pre so if I need a little boost here and there it's available.

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah but that's a lot of spondulas for maybe 1,2 times a year... I'd have to rebuild my rig again and my wife would kill me as Ive nowhere to store it (my house is quite small lol)

That's why I moved away from the ampeg to barefaced... It is at least nearly twice as loud to my ears


Nope I don't have the gain that high... I tend to push my preamp (John East on bass) up full, get the gain on the amp to every so slightly clip when aggressively slapping, roll that back a touch from that + vol a touch on my pre so if I need a little boost here and there it's available.

Clipping can occur at both the input stages and the power amp stage. Are you aware that it’s possible to clip the output?

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Yeah I posted my eq settings earlier and I do all that, but it's not the issue... I can hear myself and my amp fine. Each venue dictates my sound settings and I change accordingly even when the bass tone is not what I want. The issue is pushing the head that hard I'm afraid I'm pushing it too hard.

The gigs in question are very large stages... Like our amps are 20 ft from us and we can run around with plenty of space.

Thanks @BernardBass. Since you've already done the EQ tweak, you really might want to check out that DNS-410 cab. Like I said, using just that one cab with my amp bridged at 800-watts rms into it, I get told to turn down on at outdoor Music Festivals.when I get my master up to 10:30. It's max SPL is 137db with 1400-watts. My 800-watt amp could push it over 134db (700-watts will push it to 134db) and your 1,000 watt amp should push it up over 135db. That's well above the threshold of pain and being 20-ft away from it should be big help. Here's the link with all the specifics about it [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]