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Pyramid extra short scale flats issue on the E string...

Avezzano

Avezzano

Feb 8, 2000
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Avezzano AQ (Italy)
#1
So, about my Rocktile "pet" supershort (25,5" scale) TB4, weeks ago I decided to upgrade it a bit. Was it strictly necessary? Not at all. Do I like doing it? Absolutely! So, I ordered four Warwick black tuners to replace the standard ones: ok. Good fit, it only took 15 minutes (45 euro). I also replaced the standard "L" Fender style bridge with a Wilkinson black one having the brass saddles (17 euro). I completed the work replacing the original chrome Telecaster knobs with some black ones (Ken Smith style) that I had lying in the spare parts drawing. Finally I installed the black Shaller Straplocks, also found in the spare parts drawer. Icing on the cake: I ordered me "custom build" Pyramid Flats 100/80/65/45. At Pyramid they required exact measurements and I asked them specifically for maximum possible tension, due to the extra short scale. In one week they built and sent me the strings set. Very professional behaviour. Only problem is: while the ADG strings are tight, they sustain and have a clear, beautiful overall sound, the E string instead only as a quick "thud" sound and an unacceptable short sustain/tone. Mind you: this is NOT a short scale issue, since the original round strings set just plays so good and tight. I wrote them, but as for today still no answer.

Question: could this issue be due to some possible mistake in creating the E string? Ideas? Any similar experience? Thanks in advance...
 
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#2
Avezzano said:
Mind you: this is NOT a short scale issue, since the original round strings set just plays good and tight.
Click to expand...
Flawed logic. Rounds are more flexible, and have a wider usable window of decent tone and tension on very short scales. It could absolutely be the case that the low E, the way they make it, is too stiff for that scale.

On the other hand:
- does it sound that way throughout the fretboard? Even open? Pyramid Gold users don't report not being able to use the low E past the 3rd fret of their Beatle bass (they do however report that it is tubbier sounding than the other three, out of the box, and the set takes a while to even out), so a dud can't be ruled out;
- @KohanMike also has experience ordering custom-(supershort-)length Pyramid flats, and I'd ask for his input.


The above having been said, Pyramid also makes a nylon-core flatwound set that has been reported to work (if with reduced output) through magnetic pickups (apparently, the wrap is enough metal to be sensed by mags):
Tiny Boy Basses
Tiny Boy Basses
They're 25.5" (65cm) long ball to silk, which is *not* enough for your bass (which I understand to be 25.5" scale, exclusive of ball-to-saddle). You could however custom-order a slightly longer version.
[It's only natural you'd be wary of ordering from them again at this point.]
 
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#3
H
HaphAsSard said:
Flawed logic. Rounds are more flexible, and have a wider usable window of decent tone and tension on very short scales. It could absolutely be the case that the low E, the way they make it, is too stiff for that scale.

On the other hand:
- does it sound that way throughout the fretboard? Even open? Pyramid Gold users don't report not being able to use the low E past the 3rd fret of their Beatle bass (they do however report that it is tubbier sounding than the other three, out of the box, and the set takes a while to even out), so a dud can't be ruled out;
- @KohanMike also has experience ordering custom-(supershort-)length Pyramid flats, and I'd ask for his input.


The above having been said, Pyramid also makes a nylon-core flatwound set that has been reported to work (if with reduced output) through magnetic pickups (apparently, the wrap is enough metal to be sensed by mags):
Tiny Boy Basses
Tiny Boy Basses
They're 25.5" (65cm) long ball to silk, which is *not* enough for your bass (which I understand to be 25.5" scale, exclusive of ball-to-saddle). You could however custom-order a slightly longer version.
[It's only natural you'd be wary of ordering from them again at this point.]
Click to expand...

The E string is NOT too stiff for the short scale: if anything, it is SOFT to the touch under the fingers, instead. The poor behaviour is constant through all the string length. Now, if the logic affects the flats concept in general, then in some degree this should also be reflected on the other three strings. That, instead, play and feel just great. They are excellent and perfectly comparable to the rounds that I just dismounted: compact and round tone. Without the "zing" due to the roundwound.

Few minutes ago I just had a very polite and positive answer from Pyramid that advises to give some time to the E string to "flourish" somehow. Otherwise we'll try some other thing. They are great guys. I don't know... let's see if it will be ok with some playing time.
 
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#4
Avezzano said:
The E string is NOT too stiff for the short scale: if anything, it is SOFT to the touch under the fingers, instead.
Click to expand...
I once (well, twice: I used two of them) tried a single 090 Rotosound flat low E for my 30" scale bass. It was very soft, as in: low-tension, but also very stiff (already verifiable before installation, by how extremely hard to coil it was), at the same time, which probably accounted for a number of its flaws (very dead tone from the outset; jumpy pitch upon the attack).
Now, if the logic affects the flats concept in general, then in some degree this should also be reflected on the other three strings.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. Construction being equal, thinner strings are less stiff.
Difference in tone between the low E and the rest of the strings is a common problem, reported by many users for many flatwound products.
Off-the-shelf Pyramid Golds (in other words, I can't say it's true for your custom set) have also been revealed to have a round-core low E, vs. the hexagonal-core rest of the set:
Round core Flatwounds quest. Who makes them?
The round core should actually translate in slightly less stiffness (compared to a hex-core E of same gauge, not to the adjacent A), but
- it may not be enough to offset an overall stiff construction due to the winding
- it may enhance lows more than it does highs, making it darker.
 
#6
...I only have two other contrasting experiences with flats: on my 32" scale Stylist B1 hollow body I installed Fender flats and they play absolutely ok. Still today they play and feel just great. On my other hollow body 30" scale Ibanez I wanted something... super, so I got TI flats. Result: playing that bass has always been a pain, given the floppiness of that string set. Flats can be a difficult love story...
 
#9
No pic, no number...

Ah... ok: in the picture you see the Rocktile TB-4 (in Usa you will find it as Glarry CW-101) after the upgrade and the frills that came with the Pyramid flats...
Rocktile TB4.jpg
 
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#10
2F/2F said:
A scrawny .100” E doesn’t sound good on 25.5” scale? I’m shocked.

Seriously; a .100 flat has trouble getting enough tension even on a 34” scale bass IMO. Even worse on 30”. 25.5”…forget it.
Click to expand...
Look: after playing bass since I was 18 (now I am 67) recently I came to the conclusion that... "never say never" and that things you believe or you "think" are written in the stone, with time and the right experience, just go upside down in a second. I bought this little bass because currently I am just playing in trio in the living room of a friend, so I do not need/want to carry with me heavy, cumbersome stuff. Then I discovered instead that this 25,5 scale, supercheap bass plays just so good. And after having stretched the E string a lot today, little by little I see that it is starting to deliver a proper performance, more in line with the other three strings. Exactly as Pyramid wrote to me. At the beginning I was scared, but I must admit he's just right. I pinched it, pulled it and every time it went out of tune. Until there was nothing more to be pulled or to be stretched. I am more relaxed, currently...
 
#13
I have found what you are describing to be true of Pyramid strings. The low E does not sound like the other strings but I still like the sound. I have heard many people who think that the low E string is defective in some way but it is really just the way that Pyramid strings sound.
 
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#14
The "dead E-string" is typical behaviour from a new set of Pyramid Golds, although I've mainly found this to be a problem with LONG scale Golds. The regular short scale sets have always been fantastic for me and they're my favourite short scale strings, by far!

Pyramid Golds were specifically designed for Höfners back in the day and I personally don't think they work very well for long scale at all. Maybe it's the same with ultra-short. Maybe the regular short scale set hits a sweetspot with the gauges/tension and the problem with the long scale "dead E-string" reappears when going shorter? Or perhaps they simply don't have the tone/feel you're looking for?

The tone will become more balanced across the strings when you've played them for a while but the E-string won't get any brighter. The other strings will mellow out and and the E-string will stay more or less the same. If you already think the E-string is too "dead" these are probably not the right strings for you.

Personally I can't think of ANY strings I would find even remotely playable at that scale length. I have enough trouble finding usable strings for 30" basses!
 
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#15
+1 on @Deleted member 271037's comments. I've got a 28.6"-scale Ibanez Mikro, and the E string has always been a challenge. I haven't yet found one that I like. Generally, rounds sound better on it than flats, but still searching for one that I actually like. I'm about to install Stringjoy rounds on it, so I'll see how they sound. To the OP, I hope your new strings work well.
 
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#17
Welcome to the world of super short strings. For flats, you will always get thud because the E string, because of its overall diameter, will not vibrate in its partials to have consistent tone with the ADG strings, so it will thud instead of having tone, at least by comparison to the other strings in the set. I wish I could blame this on TI, but it is a fact of life for all short and super-short scale flatwound bass strings. It even does this a little bit on my LaBella 760L-M 32-scale E string on my Jaguar bass. The only partial solution is to make the string thinner than the math might indicate, which can lead to floppiness and instability in tuning, intonation, and fretting. So everything about a short scale E string is figuring out the compromise for the player between losing tone and losing feel. That is where the article linked by @PotsdamBass8 has value: the relative balance of each set of strings reviewed between tone and feel.
 
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#18
iiipopes said:
Welcome to the world of super short strings. For flats, you will always get thud because the E string, because of its overall diameter, will not vibrate in its partials to have consistent tone with the ADG strings, so it will thud instead of having tone, at least by comparison to the other strings in the set. I wish I could blame this on TI, but it is a fact of life for all short and super-short scale flatwound bass strings. It even does this a little bit on my LaBella 760L-M 32-scale E string on my Jaguar bass. The only partial solution is to make the string thinner than the math might indicate, which can lead to floppiness and instability in tuning, intonation, and fretting. So everything about a short scale E string is figuring out the compromise for the player between losing tone and losing feel. That is where the article linked by @PotsdamBass8 has value: the relative balance of each set of strings reviewed between tone and feel.
Click to expand...
Wondering why this only happens for the flats and NOT for the rounds: the original, anonimous, surely cheap set that the bass came with just play smooth and consistent E to G. And we're talking about 25,5" scale.
 
#19
REV said:
I have found what you are describing to be true of Pyramid strings. The low E does not sound like the other strings but I still like the sound. I have heard many people who think that the low E string is defective in some way but it is really just the way that Pyramid strings sound.
Click to expand...
So, since you wrote that, I can assume that maybe you know another brand that makes a better E flat for short scale? Or maybe this is a common plague?
 
#20
I am speechless: since I raised my eyebrow about the E string, at Pyramid they've sent me... an entire new string set free of any expense! I have to write it, because a serious company like this just needs to be known for their incredibly professional attitude. Mind you: we're talking about a custom length string set, made on specific order; not an off the shelf set...
 
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