• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Question about discontinued Bag End cabs

The Bag End system I built was about 1995-96 or so. This was quite some time after the ELF subs were introduced.

As I mentioned, I chose Bag End compact 18" ELF subs specifically to cram a full PA along with a 5-piece band into a Learjet. I could have chosen EV SB121 or Ramsa WS-A240 subs, which are even smaller, but I expected the Bag Ends to play lower and sound better.

The entire system included four compact 18" ELF subs, two TA12s and two TA12 Jrs. The processor was a Bag End Elf 1. The system also had a pair of Galaxy Audio HotSpots. The HotSpots were for the vocalist who refused to wear IEMs. Each cab got a dedicated channel from either a QSC PL1.8 or a PL1.4.

In all honesty I was a bit disappointed in the performance of the ELF subs. I expected a significant improvement in the sound quality. They sounded good, but I do not feel that they had better fidelity than a good ported design.

For context, the Bag End gear replaced a very high end (Apogee Sound) system that consisted of four AE3 monitors, two AE5 mains, and two AE10 subs. The Apogee system had way better fidelity and could play way louder...it was also way more expensive, way bigger, and way heavier.

Years later I learned that the Bag End system had remained popular for a long time after I left. Everyone loved how light and easy to set up it was.

When properly configured, the ELF Concealment did a pretty good job of hiding the limitations of the subs. Rather than farting out or clacking, the subs simply did not try to reproduce sounds that were beyond their SPL limits.

As I mentioned, I believe I cut the subs off at 40hz rather than running them all the way down to 8hz. I thought they sounded better at 40hz and they had noticeably more headroom and punch. Also, if I pushed the system hard with a lower cutoff, the subs produced some noticeable artifacts and the Concealment was not completely transparent. Essentially it become more obvious that the lows were pumping and thinning out.

I do think there are applications where the Bag End INFRA subs could be a good choice. But if you really need lot's of super low frequency output, you will need a huge array of INFRA subs and plenty of amps to push them.

If you only need response to 40hz, I am confident that a pair of JBL VRX918s would stomp a quad of INFRA S18s. I think the VRX918s would sound more dynamic and play louder.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim C and agedhorse
The Bag End system I built was about 1995-96 or so. This was quite some time after the ELF subs were introduced.

As I mentioned, I chose Bag End compact 18" ELF subs specifically to cram a full PA along with a 5-piece band into a Learjet. I could have chosen EV SB121 or Ramsa WS-A240 subs, which are even smaller, but I expected the Bag Ends to play lower and sound better.

The entire system included four compact 18" ELF subs, two TA12s and two TA12 Jrs. The processor was a Bag End Elf 1. The system also had a pair of Galaxy Audio HotSpots. The HotSpots were for the vocalist who refused to wear IEMs. Each cab got a dedicated channel from either a QSC PL1.8 or a PL1.4.

In all honesty I was a bit disappointed in the performance of the ELF subs. I expected a significant improvement in the sound quality. They sounded good, but I do not feel that they had better fidelity than a good ported design.

For context, the Bag End gear replaced a very high end (Apogee Sound) system that consisted of four AE3 monitors, two AE5 mains, and two AE10 subs. The Apogee system had way better fidelity and could play way louder...it was also way more expensive, way bigger, and way heavier.

Years later I learned that the Bag End system had remained popular for a long time after I left. Everyone loved how light and easy to set up it was.

When properly configured, the ELF Concealment did a pretty good job of hiding the limitations of the subs. Rather than farting out or clacking, the subs simply did not try to reproduce sounds that were beyond their SPL limits.

As I mentioned, I believe I cut the subs off at 40hz rather than running them all the way down to 8hz. I thought they sounded better at 40hz and they had noticeably more headroom and punch. Also, if I pushed the system hard with a lower cutoff, the subs produced some noticeable artifacts and the Concealment was not completely transparent. Essentially it become more obvious that the lows were pumping and thinning out.

I do think there are applications where the Bag End INFRA subs could be a good choice. But if you really need lot's of super low frequency output, you will need a huge array of INFRA subs and plenty of amps to push them.

If you only need response to 40hz, I am confident that a pair of JBL VRX918s would stomp a quad of INFRA S18s. I think the VRX918s would sound more dynamic and play louder.

The "concealment" function was not uncommon back in the early days of speaker processing. In effect it's a dynamic HPF with a sliding corner frequency and maybe some adaptive limiting too. I remember Renkus Heinz (Smart System) and Meyer processors doing the same thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex
Interesting review. I first heard a pair of 901s in the late '60s/early '70s when a next door neighbor bought a set and wanted to show them off. Even as a young teenager I was not impressed by them at all. :roflmao:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex
The primary benefit of the 901/902 is the midrange projection. It was a simple yet elegant solution for the technically challenged since all of the hard work is done by the engineers. The processing extension took a good mid solution and added enough low/high extension to make them much better, especially considering the era that this product was introduced.
 
Rather than opening new thread, I'll try to hijack this one...

Recently I have bought Bag End Q12R-D cabinet
It's old, discontinued Bag End product and I can't find any specs on internet, so If anyone knows anything about this cab I would really appreciate if you cloud share it with me.

I have sent e-mail to Bag End and will post here if I get reply from them.

Here are pics of cab:
bagend-q12r-d-slika-195492651.jpg

bagend-q12r-d-slika-195492655.jpg
 
All I can find on internet is this:
Q12R-C Cabinet by Bag End Loudspeakers Valuation Report by UsedPrice.com

Although last letter is C and mine is D, but from what I have understood, last letter is just designation of cabinet enclosure, C being black carpet, B being oiled birch and D being deep red carpet...

seller told me this is 350W 8Ohm cabinet, but I don't know where he got his information from (probably from previous owner)
 
All I can find on internet is this:
Q12R-C Cabinet by Bag End Loudspeakers Valuation Report by UsedPrice.com

Although last letter is C and mine is D, but from what I have understood, last letter is just designation of cabinet enclosure, C being black carpet, B being oiled birch and D being deep red carpet...

seller told me this is 350W 8Ohm cabinet, but I don't know where he got his information from (probably from previous owner)

If it's a double D12R-D, it's a guitar cab. The spec sheet for the D12R says 75W RMS and 150W program. If your cab is a double D12R-D then the power rating is 150W RMS and 300W program...but there is a good chance it won't handle that much power with bass.

I would pull a driver to see what model was used, and then if it's a Bag End driver call them for clarification. The spec sheet says the driver in the D12R-D is a Redrock.

If it's not a Bag End (or Redrock) driver, somebody has replaced the originals. The way to get the power rating is to model the drivers in the cab.
 
Almost forgot about this thread :)
I'll post here reply and my experience, maybe someone will find it useful or at least interesting.

so, this was reply from Bag End:

Hi Marin,

The 12"-"R" cabinets, R standing for Red Rock, were only produced for a
short time back in the '90s. I know there isn't a whole lot of info
available about them. What I can tell you is that the Red Rock drivers,
which would have a red dust cap on them, were a light cone driver that
was pretty much geared for guitar use. It was never intended to be used
for bass. We mostly just sold the single and double versions so that
quad has got to be pretty rare.

Here is a link to the double version of the cab from our site:
https://bagend.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/d12r-d_cutsheet.pdf Being
that yours is a quad, it would be 8 Ohms and the power handling would be
double what is mentioned. And though there are question marks next to
some of the specs (I'm guessing due to some uncertainties) it seems to
be pretty accurate from what I can recall.

Don't know how much more I could really tell you but hopefully this
helps you out. If you do have any further questions, let me know and
I'll try my best to answer them.

Regards,

Craig Lockwood
Bag End Loudspeakers

Since cabinet is not at my home (we have a place for rehearsals so that is where I keep it) I didn't pulled over speakers yet to confirm, but it looks like they are Red Rock speakers - they have red dust caps and from porting I can see Bag End sticker on speakers.
Specs shows frequency response 50Hz-6KHz and since it is 4 speakers power handling should be 150W RMS...
I have to say I did tried this cab for short time - seller gave me half hour to play with it (in small, acoustically bad room :) ) before buying, I tried with my Epiphone Thunderbird Vintage pro, Warwick gnome and seller had Ampeg V4B, and I liked the sound so I bought it without knowing what it really is.
But that doesn't matter now.

When I got back to our rehearsal place, I tried this cab with few different heads and was amazed how clear, tight and focused is sound. It is really loud and have great punch to it, it makes whole room shake.
I used to play on old Ashdown MAG 410 cab which is rated at 60Hz-20KHz so my HPF was set to approximately 60Hz.
With this setting Bag End is incredibly tight sounding - no mud or boomines I have experienced with other cabs in that particular room.
I do have feeling that it is very mid pronounced (It make sense since it is guitar oriented cab) but with HPF off and boosted bass I get sound I'm really happy with.
One other thing I have to mention is this cab is distorting (in a really pleasing way, to my ears at least) pretty early, going from low to high volume. It is not distortion like a pedal or like something is broken, but rather nice grind, especially when I dig in and strings start to hit frets.
Currently I'm using old Ashdown MAG300 EVO II, set with gain and master at noon, deep and bright switches engaged, bass at 14:00 o'clock, low mids at 13:00 o'clock, other knobs at noon, no compression, and Boss ODB-3 in front of amp.
Sound is glorious! Clear (no boomines), defined, loud, really nice bite and a kick in the chest. For me it's a keeper but I could see anyone looking for clean high volume tone would be dissatisfied with it.
So for good ol' rock'n'roll or even more aggressive styles (currently I play in a band that is something like punk/heavy metal) it really shines. It doesn't look like I'm hurting this speakers, but only time will tell.