I have been playing bass for over 15 years and it seems that my biggest weakness is intonation. Specifically my bass professor has perfect pitch hearing and is never satisfied with my sound, yet with other ppl my sound is good. But im not happy to just leave it at that, i want to get really good at my intonation. Idk if it's something you are just born with or it's just easier for others to develop. If you have ever felt this way, like intonation was so big a challenge as to discourage you, and u have overcame, share how to got to that level. special etudes? drones? etc
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Double Bass Question about Ear training
- Thread starter salbassrock
- Start date
Meandering's link was very interesting and I thought offered some good advice. I was were you are a couple of years ago, thinking that my I'll never nail my intonation on the bass. The good news is that I've spoken to bassists who've played for 30+ years and they tell me that they STILL work on their intonation.
I do a variety of exercises, but the one I think helped the most was to type tunes, exercises, melodies, etc, into Finale or Band-in-a-Box and play along to them, slowly, using the bow. Sometimes I use a double-bass sound on the computer, but most of the time, I stick with piano because it gives me the moment to hear and adjust.
I think that works because it replaced what I thought was the correct pitch, with the truly correct, well-tempered pitch, into my mind's ear. And remember, you can't say you can do something until you can do it 10 times in a row correctly.
I record all of my gigs. With the exception of the rare clam, my intonation is very good now.
Hope that helps!
I do a variety of exercises, but the one I think helped the most was to type tunes, exercises, melodies, etc, into Finale or Band-in-a-Box and play along to them, slowly, using the bow. Sometimes I use a double-bass sound on the computer, but most of the time, I stick with piano because it gives me the moment to hear and adjust.
I think that works because it replaced what I thought was the correct pitch, with the truly correct, well-tempered pitch, into my mind's ear. And remember, you can't say you can do something until you can do it 10 times in a row correctly.
I record all of my gigs. With the exception of the rare clam, my intonation is very good now.
Hope that helps!
My two cents:
Intonation is different than sound production. To improve intonation, you will need some tools.
1. Tuner; how will you know if you are in tune or not if you have no reference point!
2. Mirror; when playing in a position, minute changes in your hand that you may not notice unless you see it. When shifting, you will have to get used to what the position looks like from your vantage point and in the mirror as well as how it feels.
3. Recorder; it is good to play along with yourself, and listen to yourself to help develop your ear.
Good luck and happy playing!
Intonation is different than sound production. To improve intonation, you will need some tools.
1. Tuner; how will you know if you are in tune or not if you have no reference point!
2. Mirror; when playing in a position, minute changes in your hand that you may not notice unless you see it. When shifting, you will have to get used to what the position looks like from your vantage point and in the mirror as well as how it feels.
3. Recorder; it is good to play along with yourself, and listen to yourself to help develop your ear.
Good luck and happy playing!
Always check with open strings if your intonation will drift if you play alone.
If your intonation inside a position is not good, a drone or fixed pitch instrument like piano, (fretted) guitar or some wind as a second instrument will help.
Working with vocalists or strings may result in a drift of pitch.
Ear training and pitch hearing of low frequencies will help best. Tune your strings by ear and only check your result using a tuner.
Perfect pitch will help to avoid the drift, but can cause other problems (i.e. when singers need to transpose it might get complicated). Also when the tuning is not close to the internal reference (higher or lower tuning). So it is not something you really need. Your bass professor is right in what he says, but probably should think about how people with relative pitch can handle the problem.
If your intonation inside a position is not good, a drone or fixed pitch instrument like piano, (fretted) guitar or some wind as a second instrument will help.
Working with vocalists or strings may result in a drift of pitch.
Ear training and pitch hearing of low frequencies will help best. Tune your strings by ear and only check your result using a tuner.
Perfect pitch will help to avoid the drift, but can cause other problems (i.e. when singers need to transpose it might get complicated). Also when the tuning is not close to the internal reference (higher or lower tuning). So it is not something you really need. Your bass professor is right in what he says, but probably should think about how people with relative pitch can handle the problem.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
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- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
What are you actually doing for ear training? Working on playing in tune is NOT ear training, right? There are any number of courses/CDs/websites, but for me nothing wokrs better than sitting at a keyboard playing, singing and identifying intervals in the first octave, the second octave, triads in open and closed positions and in all inversions, 4 part chords in open and closed positions in all inversions and 4 parts with 1 and then 2 tensions in open and closed positions and in all inversions.
Playing in tune is about expectation of pitch, before you play a note on your instrument, you must be able to hear that note clearly and solidly in your head. And then hear the next one and the next one. If you don't hear the note and are just playing some geographic position on the fingerboard, it's going to be very hard to play in tune.
Playing in tune is about expectation of pitch, before you play a note on your instrument, you must be able to hear that note clearly and solidly in your head. And then hear the next one and the next one. If you don't hear the note and are just playing some geographic position on the fingerboard, it's going to be very hard to play in tune.
Try to find the article
“Throwing The Dart and Other Reflections on Intonation” by Mathias Wexler from the November 2004 issue of American String Teacher.
A great article on our perception of pitch, playing in tune AND practicing for intonation.
“Throwing The Dart and Other Reflections on Intonation” by Mathias Wexler from the November 2004 issue of American String Teacher.
A great article on our perception of pitch, playing in tune AND practicing for intonation.
Singing in a small choir (ideally a quartet or quintet), even if the repertoire are only chorals, helps a lot for tuning the expectation correct intonation too (if the body can make the expectation happen is another thing).
A tuner might help too for checking the realisation of the sound expectation in the head. (With very slow note progression first think how the note should be pitched, find the position on the bass and then check the tuner and correct pitch and pitch expectation.)
Otherwise Ed Fuquas proposals are hard to beat...
A tuner might help too for checking the realisation of the sound expectation in the head. (With very slow note progression first think how the note should be pitched, find the position on the bass and then check the tuner and correct pitch and pitch expectation.)
Otherwise Ed Fuquas proposals are hard to beat...
Or put another way, go to music school - what's below is what you do in a conservatory or good college music department: theory, ear-training, dictation, keyboard harmony.
If that's not an option for you, and you don't play piano, taking piano lessons is a good place to start, IMHO. Most music schools have a keyboard requirement and for very good reason. Although it might seem obvious to some, intonation requires listening to more than one thing at a time - you're trying to play in turn _with_ something or someone most of the time, perfect pitch aside, of course. Playing a multi-voiced instrument like the piano is a big help here.
Also I think it's important to realize that looking at the music and knowing what sound comes next is the end of the process, not the beginning.
Steve "former Mannes College Theory and Ear-Training teacher" Freides
If that's not an option for you, and you don't play piano, taking piano lessons is a good place to start, IMHO. Most music schools have a keyboard requirement and for very good reason. Although it might seem obvious to some, intonation requires listening to more than one thing at a time - you're trying to play in turn _with_ something or someone most of the time, perfect pitch aside, of course. Playing a multi-voiced instrument like the piano is a big help here.
Also I think it's important to realize that looking at the music and knowing what sound comes next is the end of the process, not the beginning.
Steve "former Mannes College Theory and Ear-Training teacher" Freides
My undergrad at the Crane School of music required 4 semesters of ear training, 4 of theory, and 3 of piano.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
The only problem I have with that is my own experience, both at Berklee and at a small liberal arts school in Georgia. It's entirely possible to go through 4 years for an undergraduate degree in performance with B's and C's (and their attendant pluses and minuses) in ear training and get out at the other end. And what does that mean, you get on the stand and can only hear 72% of what's going on? An Ear Training class is just like any other class, it moves at the pace of the majority. If you don't get something, the class/material keeps moving on. If you get something right away and are ready to progress, the class/material doesn't try to catch up to you. For me, the best methodology was working one on one with a great teacher; you don't skate on ANYTHING until you get it 100% for 100% of the time.
Actually im a university senior, bass education major, and Im grateful for all of y'alls advice. I'd just like to make a quick note on something. I read some forums on cello tuning on bass and I'd thought I'd try it out and the results were surprising. Despite the increased amounts of shifting, i actually achieved better intonation. I don't plan to use this tuning for actual college work, but I wonder how much this will help me once I go back to regular tuning.
For tuning in 5ths, google Joel Quarrington. He's an authority on the topic.
For more ear training.... SING!!! Play scales and sustain the pitch you're on while singing either the next note or a third above... Play the next note... Rinse and repeat.
For more ear training.... SING!!! Play scales and sustain the pitch you're on while singing either the next note or a third above... Play the next note... Rinse and repeat.
Actually i admit im a horrible singer though i've been working on it alot. And my bass professor doesnt play piano and has perfect pitch hearing. I'd understand perfect pitch for the Bach Cello Suites, but all my solos are with piano, so shouldnt i play along with piano tempered tuning? it's like he wants me to play it in two different tuning systems but for what purpose? i play with the local symphony as well and i dont have trouble playing in tune there. So is this a perfect pitch vs relative pitch sort of thing? I bet if i understood what his overall concept was then i can move forward.
You don't need to sing belcanto, keep your voice soft but try to sing in tune or at least correct your intonation as quickly as possible (is gets quicker with time).
I still think joining a small to medium choir (i.e. at church) and singing rather quietly in the beginning helps (if the choir generally intonates well). Practicing singing with the piano (or guitar) will help too.
You can also try to imagine the pitch of the note (something you need to do anyway for singing) and check with the piano if your imagination is correct. Go from note to note that way. The bad news for this approach is that nobody can check and correct you.
For tempered vs. just intonation (commonly used 3-5 limit), only the third and sixth differ about 14 cents (100 cents = one halftone) from the tempered notes, fourth, fifth, major second and minor seventh only about 1 to 3 cents.
I doubt this is what your teacher hears. I think he means the deviation is much more than 14 cents or does not fit the just intonation/tempered deviation steps. Talk to him about what he hears and about just intonation or tempered. It might even be a good idea to do that for one complete hour (with some practicing of intonation) so that you understand how far away you are from the goal and what he is talking about.
Ask if you are falling or rising in pitch over several notes or if it is rather finger or position change related. This might help too.
Maybe buy a cheap and small two-octave keyboard for ear-training that you can bring to your lessons. So you have at least a tempered tuning reference.
In the orchestra there is constantly a certain deviation in pitch and you cannot hear yourself as good as if you play alone, so hearing the (fingered) pitch of your instrument in this context might be hard. (It also means you are not thrown out immediately because of bad intonation.)
You won't make any progress until your can hear yourself that your intonation is wrong. So train your pitch perception and pitch relation of intervalls (at least pitch in relation to the tonic). Only then you can hear your wrong intonation yourself and correct it.
BTW, tuning your instrument by ear helps too. You can check afterwards with a tuner if your tuning was good or not and what you did wrong.
I still think joining a small to medium choir (i.e. at church) and singing rather quietly in the beginning helps (if the choir generally intonates well). Practicing singing with the piano (or guitar) will help too.
You can also try to imagine the pitch of the note (something you need to do anyway for singing) and check with the piano if your imagination is correct. Go from note to note that way. The bad news for this approach is that nobody can check and correct you.
For tempered vs. just intonation (commonly used 3-5 limit), only the third and sixth differ about 14 cents (100 cents = one halftone) from the tempered notes, fourth, fifth, major second and minor seventh only about 1 to 3 cents.
I doubt this is what your teacher hears. I think he means the deviation is much more than 14 cents or does not fit the just intonation/tempered deviation steps. Talk to him about what he hears and about just intonation or tempered. It might even be a good idea to do that for one complete hour (with some practicing of intonation) so that you understand how far away you are from the goal and what he is talking about.
Ask if you are falling or rising in pitch over several notes or if it is rather finger or position change related. This might help too.
Maybe buy a cheap and small two-octave keyboard for ear-training that you can bring to your lessons. So you have at least a tempered tuning reference.
In the orchestra there is constantly a certain deviation in pitch and you cannot hear yourself as good as if you play alone, so hearing the (fingered) pitch of your instrument in this context might be hard. (It also means you are not thrown out immediately because of bad intonation.)
You won't make any progress until your can hear yourself that your intonation is wrong. So train your pitch perception and pitch relation of intervalls (at least pitch in relation to the tonic). Only then you can hear your wrong intonation yourself and correct it.
BTW, tuning your instrument by ear helps too. You can check afterwards with a tuner if your tuning was good or not and what you did wrong.
A good ear is a good ear - you'll figure out how to be in tune by yourself, with a piano, with an orchestra, etc., without having to think about it much, if at all.
The point about a class moving at the speed of the majority is a good one. I should add it's what's wonderful about going to a small school like Mannes.
When I was a Mannes student, someone once complained about one of our classes being too big when it had 8 students in it - I had classes with as few as 3 total students. While that's not private lessons, it's a whole lot closer than most people get, and it's one of the reasons why I still recommend Mannes so very highly to everyone - you won't fall through the cracks there without being noticed. That doesn't mean that everyone, regardless of how they came in, goes out an ear-training and theory wizard, but it does mean you'll get as good an education in these areas as you can possibly get in a college setting, IMHO.
A theory and ear-training program has many components, and it's necessary to acquire skills in all of them, IMHO, in order for your skill set to actually help you play better - one gaping hole can be what makes you play in poorly. Indeed, the saying goes that the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
We could have a long thread about college/conservatory theory and ear-training programs - suffice it to say that you're best off really embracing what they're trying to teach you and trying to ace it all.
For playing in better intonation, the suggestion to sing is undoubtedly the best one. Join a choir somewhere, and get good enough that they want you in the small choir where you'll hear yourself and your mistakes better and therefore learn more.
At Mannes, we used the Dannhauser series of book - every week you had an assignment to learn a new song that you sang on the solfeggio names of the notes (i.e., fixed "do"), and in class you'd be singing at least part of that song by yourself while the teacher accompanied on the piano. I have done this with private students in the past but I think it works best in a classroom setting.
If you've got no other way to work on singing in tune, find yourself a friend who plays piano, and pick up this book of songs used by many (perhaps most) classical vocal teachers for their beginning students - forget the Italian words if you don't know Italian, and just solfege it.
http://www.amazon.com/24-Italian-Songs-Arias-Collection/dp/0793515130
We use this collection here _all_ the time - we all sing it (me, my wife, my son who's a rising sophomore at Mannes) and the vocal lines get performed on all kinds of instruments, not just sung. You could do worse than to do a harmonic analysis on some of the simpler tunes like "Caro, Mio Ben," too.
-S-
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OH!!! I remembered a great piece of software - Practica Musica.... check it out....
http://www.ars-nova.com/practica6.html
It was required to complete it at undergrad...
http://www.ars-nova.com/practica6.html
It was required to complete it at undergrad...
