Question about speaker size

[5string5fingers]

So I bought this book called "Stuff! Good bass players should know". It has some good information in there,and a lot of tips and what not. I have found the author of the book to be pretty biased about several things though,one in particular towards tube amps,which I'm not going to go into so don't bring that discussion in.

The second thing he's displayed a biased opinion about are 10 inch speakers. Pretty much saying thats what you NEED and SHOULD have,and shuns out 15 inch and 18 inch speakers,and doesn't even mention 12s.

18 inch speakers I can understand, they are a niche product,but over all don't work for the majority of people,and come out being too farty. But 15s?

He states in the book 15 inch speakers suffer from the same problem 18 inches do in that you have a hard time hearing yourself on stage because they throw out bass and noise farther,so while you turn up to hear yourself,the people in the audience are getting slammed with bass. Has any one found this to be true in their experience??

For the heck of it did an experiment with my own 1x15 and it is noticeably louder out front,but the point of which it I found the best and most noticeable volume increase was about 15 feet in front of the cabinet. Hardly that far away. The further away I got the more open it sounded and less bass I received at that volume.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

He states in the book 15 inch speakers suffer from the same problem 18 inches do in that you have a hard time hearing yourself on stage because they throw out bass and noise farther,so while you turn up to hear yourself,the people in the audience are getting slammed with bass. Has any one found this to be true in their experience??

What you can deduce from that statement is that the author isn't an acoustical engineer.
All driver sizes 'throw' in precisely the same fashion. The differences heard between the levels and tone on stage and in the audience are purely the result of boundary reflections and the room modes that result from them.

 

[bigdaddyforge]

yeah, you'll get bias from anyone who actually plays bass due to personal preference and various tonal characteristics from different components of your rig.

18's are good if you need fat low bass, 15's go well if you want a punchier low end and some of that low bass. 10's have the best 'response' and with a few of them can put out the same or more air flow as some 15's or even 18's.

while i love a couple of 8x10 cabs on my svt, the b25-b on a 2x15 cabinet has some of the best overall tone.

pretty much all you need is a decent efficient cabinet, 200+watts solidstate or 50+ watts tube to play out, a bass you don't have to fight to play, and just dial it in. you can get the same tone 15 different ways from different amps/cab/bass setups so it's all up to preference and the quality of your ear.

if you can't hear yourself on stage try to stand a little further from the cabinet to get inside the conical projection, or closer to it to feel it and try to vary your tone from that of the guitarists or it'll blend quite a bit and throw you off, and lastly make sure everyone adjusts their volume within range of the drums as a lot of heavy hitters can drown out the band.

play what ya like, play what ya know, just get out and play!

 

[rockstarbassist]

Sounds like you should get your $$ back. Youbeenhad, breaux.

 

[BrBss]

I think we need a "speaker size vs. tone" sticky...

 

[Jim11895]

This is off topic with regard to the OP's question, but it is another question about speaker size. Think of the iconic rigs used in rock and roll. For guitar players, it's the Marshall stack. For bass players, the Ampeg 8x10. The Marshall has 12" speakers, and the Ampeg has 10" speakers. Can anyone tell me why Marshall chose 12's and Ampeg chose 10's? It seems that it should have been the other way around. Yes, I know these are different companies, and yes, I know many other speaker sizes and configurations have been used for bass and guitar over the years, but these two examples seem to be the dream rig of many players of bass and guitar.

Thanks.

PS - This is an honest qurestion. Not trying to start any nastiness.

 

[bigdaddyforge]

This is off topic with regard to the OP's question, but it is another question about speaker size. Think of the iconic rigs used in rock and roll. For guitar players, it's the Marshall stack. For bass players, the Ampeg 8x10. The Marshall has 12" speakers, and the Ampeg has 10" speakers. Can anyone tell me why Marshall chose 12's and Ampeg chose 10's? It seems that it should have been the other way around. Yes, I know these are different companies, and yes, I know many other speaker sizes and configurations have been used for bass and guitar over the years, but these two examples seem to be the dream rig of many players of bass and guitar.

Thanks.

PS - This is an honest qurestion. Not trying to start any nastiness.

larger speaker diameter = greater chance of speaker distortion

the ampeg setup with alternating speaker excursion and 10" drivers produces a much more powerful sound without breaking up and moves as much or more air than larger speaker setups while being punchier and still heavily bass driven with much larger magnets feeding it.

light magnet 12's are voiced for upper mid range and actually give out in a similar fashion to the tubes causing them to distort which is a good part of a marshall rig's tone.

it's the same concept in car and home audio. 10's are preferable to 12's or 15's if you want *tight* low bass without getting sloppy and distorted. you don't see many good sounding home theatres or car stereos with 15" subs for a reason.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Can anyone tell me why Marshall chose 12's and Ampeg chose 10's?

They used what they could get. Marshall used twelves because that's what size Celestion had to offer. Ampeg used tens (in the SVT) because they wanted a 32 ohm driver (for simple parallel wiring) and CTS had a 32 ohm ten. Driver size in and of itself only affects the angle of dispersion, and in that respect both Marshall/guitar players and Ampeg/bass players would have been better off using tens, but Marshall didn't have the option. Any and all other conclusions drawn about tone etc. based on cone size alone are purely anecdotal and/or speculative, and authors of those views are just like the author of this book: they're not acoustical engineers either.

 

[5string5fingers]

I think we need a "speaker size vs. tone" sticky...

what does that have to do with this thread? The discussion here is not about tone of speaker sizes its about their projection.

 

[greenboy]

what does that have to do with this thread? The discussion here is not about tone of speaker sizes its about their projection.

Well then you merely need to reference the Inverse Square Law and be done with it. That book's author is evidently FOC {that's not standing for Front of House BTW ; }.

All direct radiators as seen in bass rigs work exactly the same as regards "projection". Driver size does not have anything to do with it. That which is louder close up will be louder far away.

 

[johnk_10]

......................... you don't see many good sounding home theatres or car stereos with 15" subs for a reason.

i'm guessing that the reason you don't see many 15" car sub speakers has more to do with lack of space. i mean, where, besides the trunk, would you mount one? and most small home theater systems (like mine) are made to be inexpensive, not take up much space (unobtrusive) and don't really need to have much power handling or SPL.

 

[greenboy]

Yeah, big surprise to some, but all the common driver sizes can be used to design a subwoofer box around, and if you want one that is smaller AND goes deep you'll use a smaller driver.

 

[PunkSweeper]

He states in the book 15 inch speakers suffer from the same problem 18 inches do in that you have a hard time hearing yourself on stage because they throw out bass and noise farther,so while you turn up to hear yourself,the people in the audience are getting slammed with bass. Has any one found this to be true in their experience??

This can be pretty easily by the fact that any given 15 will beam more than a single 10, thus firing right past your knees or even torso and blasting the audience with the midrange in the bass signal. Said midrange is pretty much the basis by which you "hear yourself" and the notes you're playing on stage.

As for multiple 10's, chances are his experience with them are in an 8x10'' or a 4x10" on top of something. A 4 or 8x10" is still pretty directional because of the driver layout, but in this case it's close enough to your head that you can usually still the midrange.

 

[5string5fingers]

This can be pretty easily by the fact that any given 15 will beam more than a single 10, thus firing right past your knees or even torso and blasting the audience with the midrange in the bass signal. Said midrange is pretty much the basis by which you "hear yourself" and the notes you're playing on stage.

As for multiple 10's, chances are his experience with them are in an 8x10'' or a 4x10" on top of something. A 4 or 8x10" is still pretty directional because of the driver layout, but in this case it's close enough to your head that you can usually still the midrange.

Interesting point.

 

[greenboy]

A 4 or 8x10" is still pretty directional because of the driver layout, but in this case it's close enough to your head that you can usually still the midrange.

The ol' Inverse Square Law at work again: things with ears hear things that are closer to them, as LOUDER. Until more people have bioengineered auxiliary ears on the back of their knees the taller cabs and stacks always win for close-position playing regardless of sensitivity/efficiency of the speakers.

 

[bigdaddyforge]

i'm guessing that the reason you don't see many 15" car sub speakers has more to do with lack of space. i mean, where, besides the trunk, would you mount one? and most small home theater systems (like mine) are made to be inexpensive, not take up much space (unobtrusive) and don't really need to have much power handling or SPL.

i've seen plenty of 15" in hatchbacks and truck systems and up to 36" in pure decibel driven competitions but the larger you go the more it distorts as you drive it. 10's are always preferable when you're looking for tight cleanly driven bass and most car audio nuts who want a lot of bass but a clear stereo will use good 10's instead of cheap 12's just to get some ghetto blasters.

most home theatres and 'premium' car stereos use 8-10" drivers both for space saving and to have a clear low end response that doesn't distort and or produce overbearing bass like some of the more ridiculous car rattling systems that sound terrible and drive the bass well over the mix even at -6 on the dial.

but i digress, don't mean to hijack. carry on!

 

[greenboy]

bigdaddyforge,

This distortion stuff you are thinking based on some poorly digested car audio experiences is plain nuts. Some of the least distorting subwoofer drivers for pro use are in the larger sizes. This is another instance where DRIVER SIZE itelf has little bearing on quality of audio - it's all about specific driver designs (and how well they are being put to use in the design and reinforcement stages).

 

[johnk_10]

i agree. i've never heard of larger speakers having more distortion than smaller ones.
a good example would be a JBL K120 (12") vs a K130 (15"). they both have the same motor (voicecoil, spider, magnet, cone suspension, paper, thickness etc), but the 15" deifinitely does not distort any quicker than the 12".

 

[masonsjax]

Neither are smaller speakers always free and clear of distortion.

 

[dmot002]

15's give massive amounts of *tight* low bass. The reason you don't see them is because 90% of the Earth's population does not have the know how on how to properly tune a 15 inch sub...