Question for fast pluckers

[Fergie Fulton]

I found out that even when I play slow the middle finger does its circular movements. Here's what happens: the middle does a decent follow-through after the pluck, but as it returns, my first knuckle (the big one at my palm) lifts the finger much higher and further than it needs to to clear the string, and then kind of swoops down in this crazy arch to pluck the string.

I found out, just by messing around, that if I tuck my ring and index finger into my palm, the middle finger's oval movements are a little flatter and hence less movement. I was playing quarter notes at about 80 BPM (4/4 time) on the open G string while staring at my fingers to make sure to primarily use my second knuckle to move my middle finger and not relying on the big one, thus creating consistancy between the two fingers. I don't think I'll be playing anything musical for a while, LOL, it really seems like I have to completely re-write 5 years of right hand technique, until this feels more naturally anyway.

Another thing that seems to help is I adapted part of this exercise by TB'er 'Deacon_Blues' (the rest can be found in post #1 of the "Exercise Sticky" thread:

"...Start for instance on the G string. Rest your index finger on it and the middle finger on the string below (D). Then pluck the G string with your index and simultaneously move your middle finger to the G string to mute it. The result should be a staccato note as short as possible. Well, now your index is resting on your D string and your middle on the G string. Then pluck the G string again with your middle finger and move up the index to mute it as quickly as possible, i.e. exactly the same thing as you already did, only with switched fingers. Now you're back where you started..."

I personally did a slight variation of it though, because I like playing with free strokes as opposed to rest strokes, so I wouldn't rest my finger on the lower string, but the concept is the same.

I did this for eight quarter notes, and then play eight quarter notes legato and then go back to the staccato exercise, all on the same string. It will take me a while but it will certainly help. A good thing too is that I don't have to be playing bass to practice favouring the second knuckle, though I'm going to try to do it as much as possible for the mental association.

Thanks again everyone, and I hope this thread is helpful to anyone else out there. I'll update back in a couple of months or so.

Its just a tight tendon you have going on it is not a problem so do not make it one.....just now. Incorporate finger stretches to help loosen it off.

Plucking movement originates from the middle knuckle ( look at this as bottom, middle and top knuckle from the hand) not the bottom knuckle.
The Bottom knuckle move because the middle knuckle needed support for its movement.

Now as an exercise play slow and do not lift the fingers up from the strings, but rather curl the finger in to the palm and keep it there till it is needed again, so it is a free stroke, but an exagrerated one.

If you look at what you are doing you will notice the finger need to curl in and out to play the exercise.
When you play for real you will see the motions are related but the exercise is a controlled exaggeration of the movement.

As for those finger stretches try this

Spread your fingers long and straight, then fan them out, really stretch them apart and hold for 10 sec.
Pull them together, keeping them long and straight, then relax.
Wiggle the finger and repeat as many times as you need to.

Spread your fingers long and straight, then fan them out, really stretch them apart and hold for 10 sec.
Pull them together, keeping them long and straight, then fan them out again and bring them back straight. repeat this about 20 times, them relax and give them a good wiggle.

These two stretches will exercise the fingers and hands and keep them healthy. Playing bass is about using the hands in semi closed to closed positions, these exercises help "remind" the hands of the other functions and movements it has. These exercises can be seen as helping relieve the stresses of playing rather than adding to them. A healthy hand has full movement and a healthy hand is a good hand for life.

 

[FretlessMainly]

As for hammer ons and pull off they require the fingers of one hand to work together not the hands....thats why they are called hammer on and pull off because you do not use the plucking hand. Again this is an effect that has a technique it is not part of plucking.

I would make the point that learning how to not use your plucking hand while hammering on, pulling off, sliding, etc., in some ways requires nearly as much technique as proper plucking. If you play a 13-note, four-measure line and only pluck, for example:

| on one, off three |

| on two, on four |

| off two, on four |

| on one, off three |

This requires a high-level of coordination between both hands so that the texture of the line is properly presented.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I would make the point that learning how to not use your plucking hand while hammering on, pulling off, sliding, etc., in some ways requires nearly as much technique as proper plucking.

Not sure of your point, you say "not learning to use,"so that implies that learning to use both hands not only first.... but correctly.....or how else do you compare what works best. If you are not doing a technique correct then you cannot compare it. Then there is believing you're doing it correct as opposed to actually doing it correct.

For something in a technique to be valid it need to tick a lot of boxes across the spectrum, show whether any variations are the technique itself or the teaching. Again, this can lead to player believing they are doing things correct when in fact they are not.

What we are discussing here are the fundamentals of learning, not application. A player has to have the basics right before the move on.
Unfortunately many young players never get the basics right simply because the basics are boring. This is the same in any learning that requires development.

There is are always thread going on about Tab v SN with players saying reading SN is hard and Tab is easier......so why?

Well you have been learning Tab all your life, you already know Tab even if you have not seen it or even heard of it. You have learned the boring basics of tab when you learned to count as a child.
So much so that you know how to order numbers to count to 1 million of you ever wanted to without anyone actually teaching you this.
You deal with numbers in many ways that they are part of your thinking, numbers have been internalised, where as SN and reading music has not.

How can I show this?

Count back from 100 to 0

Now even if you have never done this you will do it with ease.

Now say the alphabet backward from Z.

Saying the alphabet backwards is so much harder because it has never been used in actual day to day life. As a child you learned, whether you realised it or not, to work numbers. Since reading notes is based on Letters not numbers then it will be harder to learn. But like numbers, once learned it is easy to apply, but the time must be taken to learn it.

So when a player sees tab, they already know how it works because basic fundamentals are in place.

So when the basic fundamentals of plucking and fretting are applied then the benefits become more apparent as the player develops not at the point of learning.
So as I said, if you learn to pluck and fret every note correctly then when you learn a technique that does not require it, it is by choice that you do not pluck every note rather than not being able to do it.

 

[Fuzzy Dustmite]

Rocco is the definition of economy of movement on his plucking hand.

 

[Matthew_84]

Hey all,

So I did a lot of practice of this last night, and this morning too, and as I drove for work, LOL, and now my tendon seems to be moving the way I want to. I will slow down though and work my way up and won't really work on much else, until I can play this way naturally, subconsciously.

I would like some feedback. I have used two different RH positions since I've been playing bass. I started off like this:

Link Removed

Link Removed

But after watching a Billy Sheehan RH tutorial last year, I started to adapt his technique (but with only two fingers instead of three). So now my current technique looks something like this:

Link Removed

Link Removed

After watching many videos. I see most players (like Rocco, Jaco, Geddy, etc) play like how I did when I started off (first method). I thought, until today, the second method gave me a smaller range of motion, but now that my middle finger seems to move back the way I'd like it to, they are about equal. I did prefer the second one for the only reason that I would strike the string more from the bottom, which allowed me to lower my action a tad, but the first method feels more natural to me.

I'm curious which one you guys would recommend for speed. I know speed isn't everything, but to me, it's been the biggest thing holding me back, most of the songs I want to learn I can't because I'm limited by a lack of speed, this even includes Beatles songs.

And I'd like to start off on the right foot, if I'm going to spend a week or working solely on RH technique.

So any insight would be huge. Thanks.

 

[BenHack]

Hi Matthew

I'm sure you're going to get more in depth answers from other posters but here's my thoughts. Both methods of placing are acceptable, and both can/will produce different sounds.

The first method you started off with allows you to 'pull/pluck' through the string with your plucking finger then coming to rest not he string below. I believe this is sometimes known as a rest stroke (coming from classical guitar). This technique can allow you to get more 'meat' of the finger on the string and produce a fatter sound. It also facilitates raking much easier.

The second technique you're looking doesn't get as much 'meat' on the string and pulls the string in a slightly different direction, therefore, producing a different tone. This technique is very much about economy of motion and can be taken to amazing heights and may facilitate many very fast passages. It's also used a lot more for fast chordal arpeggios e.g. matthew garrison's style of playing.

My take is that you're likely to gravitate more towards one that the other but it's good to have many techniques up your sleeve so that you can produce the sounds you are looking for. I goes your preference may come down to what's more comfortable balanced against the types/styles of music or baselines you want to play.

I hope that's at least a little bit helpful.

Cheers

Ben

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Hi Mathew, great stuff and glad to hear it is starting to come the way you want it.

But let me add, please use your ears to tell you whether a technique is working not your eyes, if it sound right it is right, if it sound wrong then do something about it. playing is about how it sounds not how it looks.

Yes we all try and copy our heros but at some stage we move away from them because our ears take over and we start to hear what we play. In learning, it is a visual and hearing task in amuch as we look very close at what we do to place our fingers on the string, and to look at what string is being plucked.....but that stops once we are familier with playing.

Why in your case does it have to be one or the other?
Let what you play dictate whether it is a free or rest stroke....you can mix the two, the same as you can use any combination of fingers ( or pick or thumb) to pluck.

I believe you are over thinking it to early in the develpment of what you are doing as to how it looks rather than how is sounds.
What you are doing is trying to refine something in development, so the parameters always change a bit each time, but each change takes you a little bit further away from what you need to learn and develop. Yes once it is down, once it has been internalized then you can change and tweek by choice and necessity.

Check out this clip of some of the tweeking, changes and ideas i used in the recording of Mellow Down Easy.
To look at it it is all wrong, hand positions and fingers being used.
But listen to it in context of the song and it all makes sense why these things were done. All i done was to instinctivly blend many things i learned ( right or wrong) to create the feel, sound and effect i wanted.



There are a few more videos on the site feel free to check them out and as usual ask question and i try and answer.

 

[Emilym80]

Speaking from personal experience, playing with both my fingers was quite hard to get used to. I started learning electric bass a couple of weeks before one of my school's stage bands went on tour (hurt my finger and couldn't play upright) and played every chart solely with my index finger. Then I started playing some notes by adding in my middle finger and eventually got used to it. Now I can play fluently and much faster using both instead of one. You need to practice. I'm learning to play with three fingers now and trying to learn to gallop. It sounds like crap, but I'm getting better, more fluent and more comfortable with it every day. If you practice playing 8th notes with both your fingers alternating every day you should hopefully get it fairly quickly. Good luck

 

[jplumansoc]

I never said speed comes instantly, I was suggesting that with proper technique and technical exercises, learning songs is much easier. I said that practicing slow is more often than not practicing faster because subdividing in your head is actually pretty hard. What I'm getting at is that tackling the hardest songs will get you know where because all you know is that song and you didn't learn the technique behind that song to apply other music or to apply in your own creations. We are arguing different things.

If I decided to just learn run for cover, all I would know is that song and I could only apply what I learned from that song to whatever I wanted rather than apply the general technique to whatever piece I wanted.

I'm trying to make a point for technical excercises being important rather than learning songs. It'll give you more creative freedom in the end rather than just stealing riffs from other songs and making a contemplation of different songs into one. Does that make sense?