Question for fast pluckers

[Matthew_84]

Me again,

I am currently taking lessons, and will bring this up with my teacher Thursday night, but I'm just curious what some of you may make of this.

I can play 16th notes in 4/4 time at about 84 BPM with my index finger only. I can do the same with the middle finger (but for not as long, maybe 30 seconds or so before losing consistency). But when I alternate my fingers - I try to do as little raking as possible, I still max out at 84 BPM. How can this be? If I can do 84 with each finger independently, I'd think 100 BPM with both shouldn't be a problem.

When I do pluck with each finger independently they seem to move like a pendulum back and forth right over the strings... The movements are small and there's not much waste in movement there, but when I get both fingers into the mix, the middle does these huge circular movements (imagine Sonic the Hedgehog's legs when he's running). Now it's only the middle, but the index moves at a slower speed so that the timing of the two attacks are consistent.

Does this sound normal to you? Does your middle finger move similarly to mine?

I play with with about a 60 - 90 degree bend in the second knuckles and try to play with those knuckles as much as possible. I also try to play with as light of a touch as possible.

Thanks all, and any insight would be great.

 

[JimmyM]

Before I give you the "music isn't a race" lecture, I'll just say that everything you do requires practice, and if you want to improve, there is only one way to do it.

Now the lecture...

Music isn't a race. Speed is a by-product of learning music that requires it. To master a song that requires speed, you first have to learn the notes, and you do that deliberately and slowly and out of time. Then once you do that, you learn it at a ridiculously slow tempo and you don't change that tempo until you can play it at that tempo. Then you gradually bring up the speed until you're in time, and don't move onto the next speed plateau until you've got the slower speed down cold. Allow yourself the opportunity to make mistakes, don't push yourself or beat yourself up over it, and just realize that it's going to take a little time and dedication to get where you want to be.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Good points Mathew but if you can run at 10 miles an hour and i tie your leg ( three legged race style) to a person that can run 15 miles an hour, the end result is you both do not run at 25 miles an hour.

And so it is with your fingers.
As Jimmy says speed is "a by product" of knowing your task inside out. In your life you started everything you learned or tried to understand slowly. Once you became familier with the task it naturally speeded up. This is not a concious decision to speed up..it just happens.

So simple task is to train the fingers to work together.
I would take a guess thet you lead alternating with the index finger.
if so change it and lead with the middle finger. Let the middle finger deal with the strong beat and have the index finger come back to its level. Once the two are in sync they will move forward together and equal to the task.
It is the strong finger duty to match a weaker finger, since the weaker finger cannot, and that is cannot match the strong finger then they will always be issues.

As i said bring it all down to a level where they are equal, like Jimmy says slow it down to the ridiculas, trust me once they are in sync progress will come in the form of a plateau.
It is not a gradual thing, you cannot monitor development, at some point when you realise you are doing it then you are working towards the next level.

Learn to ignore the nome for a while, if you can, as a means of measuring your progress. I personally never let students over use a nome, it is there to help not become a focus.
If you can use the nome once a week to validate what you have learned and you will change the focus from speed (tempo) to playing in time...regardless of tempo.
Music is a leap of faith sometimes and having expectation of what you should or should not be able to do, takes away from what you can do and could not do. So take that leap of faith and stay in the moment and realise that it will come....and try to stop looking for it or measuring it against others.

 

[jplumansoc]

my fingers move as if you were tapping a desk. If i'm trying to go for speed i'll use my index, middle and ring finger. I'm limited by my left hand to like 95-100bpm at 16ths depending on the scale. If its all under my hand i can go faster but I don't think i've ever found a practical application for bass to play that fast with fingers that requires that much definition. I'll just use pull offs or hammer ons.

Going to have to disagree with JimmyM with speed being a by-product of learning music that requires it. That is the slow approach to learning music. It's like teaching a beginner a advanced lick with pull offs and hammerons, sliding, slapping etc. That's all he'll know and he doesn't know why its like that or why it works. Technical exercises should be learned first or you'll just have a random collection of licks. If you learn some technical exercise, and then you see it in a song, you'll be like oh... that makes sense. I'll just play it because its an application of what I know rather than... must learn one note at a time slowly then speed it up.

Good technical ability is key to improving your self. I grew up playing cello, I played for the seattle youth symphony in their top orchestra for a couple years. The bare minimum was a 3 octave scale on 16th at 90bpm on top of the related arpeggios. If you have the technical ability to play something, all you have to do is learn the notes and apply any related technique. I can guarantee you that if you try to tackle a very technical song without prerequisites, you will learn it slower than if you practice generic technical exercises and apply those techniques to a difficult song. That being said, his practice techniques for practicing slow is correct, play slow and slowly move up.

Technical exercises have been in practice by classical players for hundreds of years, unfortunately most contemporary musicians haven't picked up on it and its why the majority of musicians don't hit the caliber of professional classical players. If you have the right tools, learning music becomes easy. You can apply general techniques to any song, but if you decide to pick up a challenging song without the right tools, you'll only learn that song and the techniques you learn from it won't be as applicable to other pieces of music.

things i try to practice almost everyday for at least 30 minutes on my bass:
scales (everythign related to it), arpeggios, string jumping, hammerons, sliding, pull-offs, vibrato, harmonics, slapping

As for proper finger picking/plucking? I don't think there is a standardized method. If there is, someone let me know. There is a right way and wrong way when using a bow, but I've never been told what the right way is when playing electric bass.

 

[thefaceofbass]

Ok TB community, I preface this by agreeing that playing slowly with meaning is necessary. But the OP is specifically asking about speed.

Back in the early 90's I was passing through Portland, OR and took a lesson from Jake Kott who has played bass with Chic Corea and many other noticeable heavyweights. He immediately ignored my fretting hand and zoned in on my RH two finger technique. I had been playing for many years and in fact also taught lessons at the time, but he gave me insights in that single lesson that have stayed with me to this day.

He encouraged me to analyze which finger (index/middle) that I was beginning different phrases with, and then had me begin the same phrases using the opposite finger. It was very difficult for me initially. I remember feeling like I had pretty solid bass technique when I walked into that lesson, lol! Some passages naturally work better starting with the index and some with the middle because of rakes, string skipping, etc.

One of my favorite simple exercises is to take a 3 note sequence involving 2 strings and slowly build up speed. For example: 12th fret D string (D), 12th fret G string (G) and then the 14th fret G string (A). Using the middle and index fingers, if you pluck each note you will begin the phrase with a different finger each time. Confusing for many at first. You can also play the same sequence of notes with the final note raking into the first note of the phrase. Then try the same raking technique leading with the opposite finger. Now take this same phrase and play it in a descending pitch order- start on the 14th fret of the G string. Now play this 3 note sequence as 16th notes... Mathematically the 2 fingers playing 3 notes on 2 strings over 4/4 time will quickly expose weak areas in the plucking hand technique.

Now play these same exercises by starting on the A string instead, skipping the D string and playing the same 12th and 14th fret notes on the G string. Then play these descending in pitch. Challenging the plucking hand in this way will really help take it to new levels. Zero in on what can be improved upon. Lots of curve balls in that simple exercise.

The point is that focusing in on the plucking hand and mastering these simple types of exercises will really open up the speed, economy of motion etc... Initially just play very slowly and relaxed, and the speed will happen.

If you're very serious about speed, a dedicated bass trainer that allows you to slow a song's tempo without a change in pitch is very beneficial. I use a Tascam unit and increase the speed accordingly. Find some fast players you like and use this technique until you are up to speed.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[darius8]

Have you ever listened to Francis Rocco Prestia in Tower of Power.
Listen to "What Is Hip". He does 16th notes a majority of the song at 110 bpm.

The dudes pretty fast.

 

[sammyp]

Me again,

I am currently taking lessons, and will bring this up with my teacher Thursday night, but I'm just curious what some of you may make of this.

I can play 16th notes in 4/4 time at about 84 BPM with my index finger only. I can do the same with the middle finger (but for not as long, maybe 30 seconds or so before losing consistency). But when I alternate my fingers - I try to do as little raking as possible, I still max out at 84 BPM. How can this be? If I can do 84 with each finger independently, I'd think 100 BPM with both shouldn't be a problem.

When I do pluck with each finger independently they seem to move like a pendulum back and forth right over the strings... The movements are small and there's not much waste in movement there, but when I get both fingers into the mix, the middle does these huge circular movements (imagine Sonic the Hedgehog's legs when he's running). Now it's only the middle, but the index moves at a slower speed so that the timing of the two attacks are consistent.

Does this sound normal to you? Does your middle finger move similarly to mine?

I play with with about a 60 - 90 degree bend in the second knuckles and try to play with those knuckles as much as possible. I also try to play with as light of a touch as possible.

Thanks all, and any insight would be great.

It's only a matter of time and steady metronome work......maybe actually go below your threshold of 84 for a while so your hand relaxes as you experience total control over the tempo.....when we practice slow enough that we are in complete control of the line we have a better chance at fixing mechanics like a middle finger with movements too large.

Building speed is kinda like driving on slippery roads.....you are trying to go fast as you can while remaining safely in control of the car...a bit too far over that threshold of control and youre in the ditch.

 

[JimmyM]

my fingers move as if you were tapping a desk. If i'm trying to go for speed i'll use my index, middle and ring finger. I'm limited by my left hand to like 95-100bpm at 16ths depending on the scale. If its all under my hand i can go faster but I don't think i've ever found a practical application for bass to play that fast with fingers that requires that much definition. I'll just use pull offs or hammer ons.

Going to have to disagree with JimmyM with speed being a by-product of learning music that requires it. That is the slow approach to learning music. It's like teaching a beginner a advanced lick with pull offs and hammerons, sliding, slapping etc. That's all he'll know and he doesn't know why its like that or why it works. Technical exercises should be learned first or you'll just have a random collection of licks. If you learn some technical exercise, and then you see it in a song, you'll be like oh... that makes sense. I'll just play it because its an application of what I know rather than... must learn one note at a time slowly then speed it up.

Good technical ability is key to improving your self. I grew up playing cello, I played for the seattle youth symphony in their top orchestra for a couple years. The bare minimum was a 3 octave scale on 16th at 90bpm on top of the related arpeggios. If you have the technical ability to play something, all you have to do is learn the notes and apply any related technique. I can guarantee you that if you try to tackle a very technical song without prerequisites, you will learn it slower than if you practice generic technical exercises and apply those techniques to a difficult song. That being said, his practice techniques for practicing slow is correct, play slow and slowly move up.

Technical exercises have been in practice by classical players for hundreds of years, unfortunately most contemporary musicians haven't picked up on it and its why the majority of musicians don't hit the caliber of professional classical players. If you have the right tools, learning music becomes easy. You can apply general techniques to any song, but if you decide to pick up a challenging song without the right tools, you'll only learn that song and the techniques you learn from it won't be as applicable to other pieces of music.

things i try to practice almost everyday for at least 30 minutes on my bass:
scales (everythign related to it), arpeggios, string jumping, hammerons, sliding, pull-offs, vibrato, harmonics, slapping

As for proper finger picking/plucking? I don't think there is a standardized method. If there is, someone let me know. There is a right way and wrong way when using a bow, but I've never been told what the right way is when playing electric bass.

Then you're really not qualified to tell me I'm wrong, are you?

 

[jplumansoc]

I shared my experience with my right hand. But there isn't a standardized method of plucking, I've never seen a group of bass players say this is the right way of doing it. They all just go with whats comfortable to them and go with it.

Do like the faceofbass's finger exercise, I generally always started with my middle finger but am slowly trying out jumps starting with between the fingers, I have to really think about that one. Thanks for that bit o information.

As for learning music, JimmyM i'm just saying that learning technique before a difficult song is a much more efficient way of learning a song. Example, if someone has never learned how to slap and they say hey, I'm gunna play some Marcus Miller song, they'll take a very long time. If they for example took an hour or two just to practice slapping and pulling strings, then applied them to scales and string jumps, then tried learning Run for Cover, they would be much more effcient and they could apply his first day of practice to any song rather than just learning Run for Cover. What you said works, its just not the best way to learn music.

 

[Matthew_84]

Hey all, thanks for your tips so far.

I have spent hours and hours playing quick licks to very slow tempos and building up from there, but I have always been a bit more focused on the fretting hand. I will now start some of these licks and focus only on the right hand for h=now, making sure both fingers move with as little movement as possible.

I will also work on two octave scales, arpeggios and that exercise Thefaceofbass listed. I do believe that my middle finger is definitely the weaker finger and it is holding me back. Thanks again

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I shared my experience with my right hand. But there isn't a standardized method of plucking, I've never seen a group of bass players say this is the right way of doing it. They all just go with whats comfortable to them and go with it.

Do like the faceofbass's finger exercise, I generally always started with my middle finger but am slowly trying out jumps starting with between the fingers, I have to really think about that one. Thanks for that bit o information.

As for learning music, JimmyM i'm just saying that learning technique before a difficult song is a much more efficient way of learning a song. Example, if someone has never learned how to slap and they say hey, I'm gunna play some Marcus Miller song, they'll take a very long time. If they for example took an hour or two just to practice slapping and pulling strings, then applied them to scales and string jumps, then tried learning Run for Cover, they would be much more effcient and they could apply his first day of practice to any song rather than just learning Run for Cover. What you said works, its just not the best way to learn music.

Totally wrong on so many levels and this is the problems with techniques, because of the level of competence involved then anything can work, though it is not advisable.
You seem to blur the fact that playing a bass requires the fretting hand to lead the plucking hand, and it is the plucking hand that generates the note and the fretting hand pitches it.

If you have never been in a group of bass players talking about the right and wrong ways to play, then it does not surprise me you have the opinions you do. The players I hang around with know what is right and what is wrong that is why we are considered good at what we do and there is a demand for our services.

As for proper finger picking/plucking? I don't think there is a standardized method. If there is, someone let me know. There is a right way and wrong way when using a bow, but I've never been told what the right way is when playing electric bass.

Sorry to say there is a standard and there are correct and incorrect ways to apply them.

When we are talking about speed it is about the plucking hand.
It is about melding the plucking hand and the fretting hand to perform as one. Hammer ons, pull offs trills etc, do not require the hands to work together. Like use a bow, the two techniques are as far from creating speed on a bass because the fretting hand needs to lead the plucking hand... This does not happen in the examples you cite.

Speed is indees a by product of learning slow...in any task. I would assume that when you first tapped out documents on a keyboard you were slow and deliberate, not fast and smooth. I would even suggest that you have never really noticed how fast you have become at doing this now....all this was a gradual progression from starting slow and getting it right.

If there is no need to play fast tempos then learning to do it is fruitless, by learning to play fast tempos a player develops the skill because he has to.*

But as far as technique is concerned plucking has a mirror effect.
In 4/4 for example playing whole notes, half notes Quarter notes, 8th notes, 16th notes, and 32nd notes are the same technique, the variable is tempo.
So slow down 32nd notes and you are practicing 16ths, slow down 16ths and you are practicing 8ths, slow down eights and you are practicing quarters etc etc. Reverse the process and the result as far as technique is concerned is the same. It is the brain that will sub divide and confuse a player not really the hands.

For example to play quarter notes in 4/4 there are four plucks of the string to play the bar, so playing 4 bars is the same technique as playing 16ths, both are sets of four, both use 16 plucks of the string, to only difference is the tempo.....speed is you will. The technique is exactly the same but the brain sub dividing them in to different tasks. Slow it all down and the brain stops the sub-dividing task and allows the technique to develop because the focus is on playing not tempo. It becomes playing correct not fast.

Next time you see a world class hurdler watch how they walk between the hurdles with a deliberate motion. They are reinforcing stride patterns...making sure they use the same amount of strides between hurdles....speed has nothing to do with it till race time. Then, when they reproduce their stride pattern they increase the speed of their stride patterns not the amount of strides, and as such speed becomes part of the by product of the stride pattern being maximised to a tempo that maintains it.

 

[Matthew_84]

I found out that even when I play slow the middle finger does its circular movements. Here's what happens: the middle does a decent follow-through after the pluck, but as it returns, my first knuckle (the big one at my palm) lifts the finger much higher and further than it needs to to clear the string, and then kind of swoops down in this crazy arch to pluck the string.

I found out, just by messing around, that if I tuck my ring and index finger into my palm, the middle finger's oval movements are a little flatter and hence less movement. I was playing quarter notes at about 80 BPM (4/4 time) on the open G string while staring at my fingers to make sure to primarily use my second knuckle to move my middle finger and not relying on the big one, thus creating consistancy between the two fingers. I don't think I'll be playing anything musical for a while, LOL, it really seems like I have to completely re-write 5 years of right hand technique, until this feels more naturally anyway.

Another thing that seems to help is I adapted part of this exercise by TB'er 'Deacon_Blues' (the rest can be found in post #1 of the "Exercise Sticky" thread:

"...Start for instance on the G string. Rest your index finger on it and the middle finger on the string below (D). Then pluck the G string with your index and simultaneously move your middle finger to the G string to mute it. The result should be a staccato note as short as possible. Well, now your index is resting on your D string and your middle on the G string. Then pluck the G string again with your middle finger and move up the index to mute it as quickly as possible, i.e. exactly the same thing as you already did, only with switched fingers. Now you're back where you started..."

I personally did a slight variation of it though, because I like playing with free strokes as opposed to rest strokes, so I wouldn't rest my finger on the lower string, but the concept is the same.

I did this for eight quarter notes, and then play eight quarter notes legato and then go back to the staccato exercise, all on the same string. It will take me a while but it will certainly help. A good thing too is that I don't have to be playing bass to practice favouring the second knuckle, though I'm going to try to do it as much as possible for the mental association.

Thanks again everyone, and I hope this thread is helpful to anyone else out there. I'll update back in a couple of months or so.

 

[JimmyM]

As for learning music, JimmyM i'm just saying that learning technique before a difficult song is a much more efficient way of learning a song. Example, if someone has never learned how to slap and they say hey, I'm gunna play some Marcus Miller song, they'll take a very long time. If they for example took an hour or two just to practice slapping and pulling strings, then applied them to scales and string jumps, then tried learning Run for Cover, they would be much more effcient and they could apply his first day of practice to any song rather than just learning Run for Cover. What you said works, its just not the best way to learn music.

OK, so let's assume that what you said about learning the technique itself first is the best way to go. Are you going to start out learning this technique at a fast speed or at a slower speed? Actually, the likelihood is that you will learn it completely out of time the first few times you try it. Then once you get the hang of what your fingers are supposed to do, you'll try it at a slow tempo and see what happens. You will definitely not start out at a fast tempo because your hands will not allow you to do so. But you'll be able to gradually build your speed up to where you want to be if you practice with intent.

Now let's assume that you've practiced all your string jumps and scales with slapping and you're ready to take on "Run For Cover." What's the first thing you're going to do? You're going to learn what notes to play, and you're going to learn them slowly and out of time. Then you're going to try it at a very slow tempo and gradually build your tempo once you've mastered it at each slower tempo. You might have less of a learning curve because you know the technique already, but you still have to put in the work. It's a whole different ballgame between playing a scale and a song.

Practicing techniques in exercises means that you will be able to play those exercises. Doesn't mean you'll be able to play songs instantly.

 

[Tupac]

Have you ever listened to Francis Rocco Prestia in Tower of Power.
Listen to "What Is Hip". He does 16th notes a majority of the song at 110 bpm. song. It centers around little sixteenth phrases somewhere between 125-130 BPM. It's not as hard as it sounds though, the sixteenths come on either open or fretted A, whatever you like better. It won't take long to work up to.

 

[JimmyM]

Not really, that was a fairly simple riff. What I do find great about this is his endurance for keeping it steady the whole song, that's commendable.

Ya, no **** it's commendable! And being able to do it for 4 minutes and be solid is what makes a fairly simple riff pretty darn hard, and why he's so well respected for that line.

 

[FretlessMainly]

You seem to blur the fact that playing a bass requires the fretting hand to lead the plucking hand, and it is the plucking hand that generates the note and the fretting hand pitches it.

That is a stylistic oversimplification. I've been playing professionally and for the fun of it for over 30 years and my style typically involves generating almost as many notes with the fingering hand, through pull-offs, hammer-ons, and slides as I do with the plucking hand.

Hammer ons, pull offs trills etc, do not require the hands to work together.

Oh, they most certainly do.

 

[funkingroovin]

Sounds like it's a matter of bio-mechanics..You say your finger is moving in a laterally rotating pattern(your fingertip draws a circle when viewed from the side)..this is because you're using all the knuckles during the movement..Personally,I strike MUCH faster when alternating fingers and bending only at the "fist" knuckle..Try it..look at your hand from the side and make your 'running' motion like normal..now straighten your fingers and make a scissoring motion..I find the need to roll my striking hand position forward a bit(wrist further from the body,not closer to the neck) but it allows me to match our drummer beat for beat for a nice percussive touch

 

[Roy Vogt]

Just took a look at how I do this:
Apparently, I pluck from the string contact-I don't strike the string from a distance like you would for "Metal" technique. My fingers are curved, but I'm not really playing with a lot of movement above the second knuckle-a little bit more "fast twitch muscles" going on. I come to rest against the lower string or my thumb pad if I'm on the lowest string. I use a floating thumb-it's resting on the string below the one I'm plucking and moves across the strings (this also functions as a low string mute).
This trailer for my Master Study Series DVD illustrates the floating thumb.
https://www.createspace.com/Store/Trailer.jsp?id=204988
Muscle tension is the enemy here-stay relaxed.
IIRC, I got most of my RH speed in a 6 month period practicing modal sequence patterns (C-D-E-F/D-E-F-G/E-F-G-A etc.-I've got 4 pages of them I worked on) with a metronome gradually increasing tempo 3 bpm at at time. I've been coasting on those six months for 34 years now....
One reassuring thing: If I go back and listen to my favorite bassists (Jaco, Jeff Berlin, Stanley, Vic) they're not really that fast, especially compared to a keyboardist of saxophonist. They just play really cool ideas. Food for thought...

 

[js1]

I've recently had to attack some RH fundamentals, as I was given a bunch of Tower of Power to learn. There was a number of habits that I had to address:

- wrist too bent.
- thumb anchored on top of the pickup.
- attacking too hard.

Straightening the wrist, floating the thumb, and softening my plucking got rid of the tension that was slowing me down. Oh, that and practice.

The unintended benefit was that I was dealing with RH tendon pain during gigs, and it seems to be gone.

js

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton
View Post
You seem to blur the fact that playing a bass requires the fretting hand to lead the plucking hand, and it is the plucking hand that generates the note and the fretting hand pitches it.

That is a stylistic oversimplification. I've been playing professionally and for the fun of it for over 30 years and my style typically involves generating almost as many notes with the fingering hand, through pull-offs, hammer-ons, and slides as I do with the plucking hand.

Thank you for seeing that it is a simple thing and not complicated at all.
What you have developed into now was not what you practiced.
You and a majority of others learned to pluck and play single notes, then once you have that down you then incorporate hammer on and pull of techniques.
Learn something correct to begin with, then adapt it, only then will you be able to understand if what you have done was of any benefit to your playing.
I have lost count of the many weird and wild claims self taught players have made about what they have discovered or their abilities when they actually mix it with pros.

As for hammer ons and pull off they require the fingers of one hand to work together not the hands....thats why they are called hammer on and pull off because you do not use the plucking hand. Again this is an effect that has a technique it is not part of plucking.
So many young player that post on TB have simple fundamental problems that a good teacher giving them solid basic fundamentals would fix